Ancestors, Decolonizing Language, and Arabian Nights with Ben Stimpson

Ben

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[00:00:00] Ashley: Hi everybody. Welcome to Diamond With the Divine. So I'm your host, Ashley, and today we'll be exploring the magical and the mystical and everything in between. So on today's episode, we're gonna talk ancestral lineages and a mouthy woman who saved a whole kingdom. So I'm so excited for today's guest. I'm just generally excited if anybody wants to talk to me, so this is also awesome.

[00:00:34] Ben Stimson, he is a therapist, lecturer, student, and spiritual director. Ben has developed courses on a variety of topics, including ancestral, veneration, the power of story and folklore when not working with clients or writing. Ben is engaged with his areas of study, religious studies, medieval and classical studies, folklore and spirituality.

[00:00:56] Hi Ben. How are you? Hello.

[00:00:58] Ben: I'm great. I've been looking forward [00:01:00] to this, to be honest. How are you?

[00:01:02] Ashley: Yay. Me too. I'm doing well. The first thing I wanted to ask you was how. How did all of this start to interest you? When did you start getting interested in folklore and medieval studies and all this, and spirituality?

[00:01:17] Just let me hear your

[00:01:18] Ben: story. Yeah, for sure. Definitely. I live in Canada right now. I'm about an hour. I'm up on Lake Huron, so I'm about two hours from Toronto. But you can tell from my accent, I'm not actually originally from North America. So originally I'm from the uk I'm from North Wales and I moved over when I was like eight years old.

[00:01:35] So it really does tie, it's strange how all these treads connect, but it really does tie into my ancestral work. Okay. So I came over and having such a distinct disconnection from my home culture, from that sense of home, especially as a kid I, I often, like I was dealing with major culture shock.

[00:01:55] I've really come to understand that really was what I was dealing with was culture shock. Because North [00:02:00] America was so different, eight and a half years old is old enough to still remember home and also, young enough that I, that I didn't understand or have any control over that movement.

[00:02:10] So I really gravitated towards fair fairytale and folklore. And the stories were like King Arthur and Avalon and and fairytales of North Wales. I'm originally from North Wales. Okay. Which would be like, It would be like the distinction between North Wales and England would be like if people from New York or from New Jersey where you are from suddenly moved to Vermont, right? Yeah. That's how dark of a difference it is, right? And so it was really rugged landscape. I was an hour from the mountains and it was just a wonderful magical place. And then I came to Canada and I was suddenly very different. I was, I had an accent. I didn't understand the culture, I didn't make any friends, so a lot of my friends were mythological characters and fairytales and whatnot.

[00:02:56] And so that's really where my love of folklore started. And [00:03:00] that's actually where my spirituality started. I'm 36. So when I was about what, how old? About 12, 13. I watched the miss of Avalon for the first time. I dunno if you ever saw Yeah. You, yeah.

[00:03:13] Ashley: I don't think I've ever seen it, but I know I've read one or two books like that.

[00:03:17] Are about it. Yeah.

[00:03:19] Ben: The books I read later on. There was like A T N T miniseries, which was like made for TV movie miniseries. And it had that Angelica Houston and Juliana Margolis and a couple of books. Oh, yes. I did see it. Yeah. Yes. You remember?

[00:03:31] Ashley: I was like, yeah, I didn't watch that.

[00:03:33] Yeah.

[00:03:34] Ben: Such a hokey movie watching it now. It's so ridiculous. But it was it was cool. It was cool, especially for I, at that time I was also starting to realize I was gay. I was queer person and and so being different in so many different ways, I really gravitated towards this image of, a religion.

[00:03:53] Cause I, I grew up in a town of about 8,000 people and we were like 18 churches and and I didn't think that any of them wanted me. Yeah. [00:04:00] So that's really where all that started. All co-mingled. I, because I was queer and because, I literally had rock thrown at me when I was a kid.

[00:04:06] I I see childhood trauma coming out. We told you it would come up. Yes.

[00:04:10] Ashley: Totally fine. Like I said, we're all about it on this podcast. Sure. Your feelings. Yes.

[00:04:17] Ben: So that's really where my solace was. And then I found I started getting into wicker and neo paganism and and that's where the spirituality piece came in.

[00:04:25] And then in university the first time around I was studying social work. And so the kind of a psychological piece came into it. But I was also very deeply interested in religious studies, so I I ended up dropping outta school originally. And I've only just gone back into school in the past two years, and I'm almost close to finishing, but I've revamped because I have all my training that I need for therapy.

[00:04:48] I revamped it, focus on medieval studies, classical studies and folklore and religious studies. All of those things intermingle. All of those things build from each other. A lot of what we would look at [00:05:00] as neo paganism in in, in West now when ignoring all the cultural appropriative bits it really comes from that medieval age.

[00:05:07] And so understanding the medieval age was something I was really interested in. So it's all connected. All connected. And then the ancestor piece comes in because I was missing home. I was literally physically distanced from my ancestors. Yeah I didn't have a sp I didn't have a chance to really go and visit, the places of burial or, the old places where they resided or anything like that.

[00:05:28] And so story became powerful for me because All of that information, all that history, all those relationships were suddenly in my head. And that's where story exists. So I, it's hard to explain it all cuz it's all sorts of interconnections, but that's where I'm at. I love

[00:05:47] Ashley: every part of that.

[00:05:48] So I know, so I'm gonna start out with the first that are you even spiritual if you don't have childhood trauma? I don't I don't, I totally feel you. I was [00:06:00] bullied also when I was a kid and like it. It does make you reach somewhere inside yourself like, yes. Because you're just like, I guess it's just me out here.

[00:06:10] I guess I'm the only one I can rely on, and it sucks. But it is good when you get older and then you find your people. But I totally feel you about that. Oh God. And I So you were actually born in a different place? My parents are just from different countries, and I feel totally, I feel very similar to you.

[00:06:32] I feel like I grew up, like looking for like I didn't fit in ever, like my dad had a funny accent and and I ate like smelly foods and like all that kind of stuff. I was constantly reaching for other places and like my ancestry, cuz I was like, these, I feel like I don't, I'm in a strange country.

[00:06:53] I was born here in the United States, but I'm like, I feel like a stranger in a strange land. And that's, [00:07:00] yeah. Go ahead. I'm

[00:07:00] Ben: sorry. Oh no. I that's the thing. Anybody who has immigrant parents we all exist one foot in one culture and one foot in the other. Even if you were born here your foot is solidly planted like you were born here. But there's so much of that's also in, in the old homeland. Yes. Can I ask where your parents are from? If you don't, that's one immigrant, one other immigrant kid, if I may ask you.

[00:07:23] Ashley: No, it's fine. So my my dad is from Ghana.

[00:07:27] Okay. And my mom, actually, my mom was born in England. But her whole family is from Jamaica. Oh, yeah. So my grandpa was, he moved to Jamaica like in the fifties, and he moved back when all his kids got older. But I, it's so funny, when I was, I think I was six the first time I went to Jamaica, went to go visit my grandpa, and it's a different feeling.

[00:07:48] Like I felt like I belonged there. Yeah. It's like I had a connection to this place and I was like, I don't know where. I remember being like, I never wanna leave. My mom's we've gotta go you have to go back to [00:08:00] school. But I was like, I just wanna stay here forever. And then It wasn't till, I think it was four years ago, I got to go to Ghana for the first time.

[00:08:08] And it was that same feeling of I look like everybody here. Like I understand the nuance of the culture, like differently. And it's just a feeling like it's, and I remember when I was, when I got my first job, like my nursing job where I made like actual money to survive. I was like, my goal is to go and like to all these places that I've never been, but I wanted to go, especially to Ghana.

[00:08:35] Cause I hadn't been there yet. Just to, to have that feeling. And I felt it when I went there. I was like, okay, I, this is where my people walked. Yes. And this is where like their things are. And it's such a. Weird feeling cuz I don't know. But you and I are people who kind of delve in this kind of world, but I guess if other people don't, they don't think about that.

[00:08:55] But I've heard that same experience from a lot of people. I have a lot of [00:09:00] friends, I live in New Jersey, so there's a lot of Italian Americans here, so a lot of them go to Italy and they say I felt different. I'm like, I'm telling you, you will. It's true. Yeah. You feel your people there and you feel a connection that sometimes you may have thought oh, I'm just gonna visit, but it's something out of this world.

[00:09:16] It's very interesting.

[00:09:18] Ben: It's one of those multi levels of culture that I think unless you've had that experience of having a multicultural background you don't necessarily understand and it can be something so subtle as just how you show up, right? Yeah. Like I notice I actually have four different accents.

[00:09:36] My parents are from England. I grew up in North Wales. I grew up in a town and actually live quite close by now. I grew up in a town which was like third generation German. So it has that like letter Kenny, I dunno if you know the letter. Yeah. Letter. Kenny is based on a town very similar to mine in Southern Ontario.

[00:09:53] Okay. So like, wherever I am, my accent becomes thicker depending [00:10:00] on who I'm talking to. So like in the past two years, cause I'm actually your viewers can't see this, but I know you can. I have a. Box, like a whole wall of U hold boxes behind me. Yes. Cause I'm actually moving back to the UK next year.

[00:10:11] Yes. Okay. In about 11 months, I'm moving back to the uk. Oh. And I've been making a lot of connections with people back home cuz it's still home to me even after 28 years. Yeah. And I notice that when I get off the phone with any of them, my accent is incredibly thick. Yeah. And it's so weird. How and it's that mirroring, it's that cultural mirroring.

[00:10:30] Yes. But I do notice they feel different. Same with what you were saying. You felt different when you were in Ghana. You felt different when you were in Jamaica, right? I'm sure if you go to England to visit relatives, same thing. You'll be one of us still.

[00:10:40] Ashley: Yes. America. I love eng.

[00:10:42] I love England. Yeah. I really love

[00:10:45] Ben: England. Yeah. Where is your family from in Glen? Like

[00:10:47] Ashley: where are they? So my mom grew up in Gloucestershire, but she always tells don't say Gloucestershire. They think I'm from the fancy part. No, I'm from the city. I'm not from the nice, yeah. She's I'm not from the nice [00:11:00] countryside, I'm from like the city part.

[00:11:01] But then I have family in Leeds. And I have family, actually, my one uncle lives in Cardiff in Wales. Oh yeah. But I've never been to Cardiff, but I hear really nice things about it. And and I have family still in in Glosser City yeah. So I like England though. It's a different, it's a, we different vibe than America.

[00:11:19] It's,

[00:11:19] Ben: yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's yeah, they, they have their issues over there. They do have her issues over there. But it's different, it's, yeah. Classically as opposed to, whatever is going on in your country. Yes.

[00:11:31] Ashley: Yeah. I love, and like I love. Every, and I have to say, you speaking of issues like every country has is like jamaica's way, not perfect.

[00:11:38] God is way not, but like it's just a different feeling cuz you know, cuz like in my bones I know it, but I just like old things, right? Everything in America isn't that old. So it's. Everything's just here. And everyone's Ooh, you wanna go to the historical part? It was, it's in, this was built in 1700.

[00:11:53] And I'm like, that's not old. You go to you go to any little, like a small town in England and there's some bar and [00:12:00] on top of it says it like, started in 1490. And I'm like, yes, this is what I love. I love old churches. I could spend a day just going to old churches. Just cause

[00:12:08] Ben: honestly, same here.

[00:12:10] Very interest. Something about that feeling energetically, there's something about that feeling, right? Yes. Part of my story is I was connected with Yoruba tradition, Lukumi ro nutrition and, people I know people who've gone to the Oosh Shrine in the SBO in Nigeria.

[00:12:26] Yeah. And they said when you enter that space, you can feel the thousands of years of activity. You're not gonna get that. In Brooklyn, you're not gonna get that no California. Unless you, of course you go to Native American sites. Yes. But it's a different relationship.

[00:12:39] Ashley: You know what I mean? You're like, yeah, these are my people. Everybody gets how I am, blah, blah. And it's so funny also what you said about accents, my accent changes depending on who I'm speaking to. And also it's yes, and also my level of anger. Like I, the more irritated I am, the more broken my English becomes.

[00:12:57] Ben: A way it's a different way of expressing, right? That's, [00:13:00] yes. I find the same with me like, I had a situation the other day where an insecurity came up because I asked a very direct question to a friend of mine in the uk and they pussy footed around the answer because they were feeling uncomfortable about the answer. And they said, no, just be direct. Just be direct. Just be direct. Yeah. That's the North American in me coming up. It's fascinating. It's fascinating. Different parts of personality and like language is amazing for that because language I'm not bilingual.

[00:13:28] I'm trying to learn wesh, which is the you know what it is. I'm trying to learn Welsh. Yeah. But I know who I'm, who are bilingual. Anybody, bilingual. Many people who are bilingual, they'll say that very different person when they speak. The various different languages, right? Yes. And it's interesting how that as a symbolic process works.

[00:13:46] Right?

[00:13:47] Ashley: 100 per I'm I'm same. I'm also not bilingual, but I'm trying to also learn my dad's language now. And oh my gosh, you're trying to learn Welsh. Oh my lord. Good for you. Because [00:14:00] I have

[00:14:00] Ben: Ooh, what's that mean? I'm trying to learn it. Sharad is a speak, dusky is learn. So I'm, I don't speak, but I'm trying to learn. But it is funny how when you actually get into it, it's very, actually very similar to French in, in, in how it's organized in that I grew up over here learning French in school I didn't, I don't know French, but I studied it and it's funny how even just using different language, even just different words, even different slang, whatever it is, different parts come out, yeah. Sorry, it cut you off though. You were gonna go into a story?

[00:14:30] Ashley: No, you're fine. No I was just gonna say that I somehow ended up on like Welsh TikTok, so like I end up and I'm very like now strong.

[00:14:41] Yeah. Wills is its own thing. And like every Welsh person you guys should learn The language and it's I like listening to it cuz it just sounds cool. Yes. But and there's a lot of towns in like Pennsylvania where they have Welsh names and I'm always just like, why [00:15:00] do Welsh people hate vowels?

[00:15:01] There's no vowels. How do you say all these words? But but then when you hear people speak Welsh, it just comes out so naturally it's like butter. I love it, but I don't know how to pronounce like any, even there's a place called, I know we're all saying it wrong, dunno how to really say it, but there's a town called Mar and there's a college there, but everyone just says Bryn Mar.

[00:15:23] And there's no. Vs. Just like you guys, I'm pretty sure we're all,

[00:15:29] Ben: we could get into the colonialist piece there. That's because Colonial is in England English, phrased the way that it was even written. So like, when it's spoken, it's like with any language like Yuba, ibo or is it farm spoken in Ghana?

[00:15:44] Ashley: My tribe, I'm Ashanti, so we speak true Ashanti. Yeah. Okay.

[00:15:48] Ben: There's vowels in all those languages. Yeah. They're just not necessarily transliterated fully.

[00:15:52] Ashley: Exactly. And the alphabet obviously, do, I can figure this out, but like the alphabets are different. So like you said, when they [00:16:00] anglicize everything, it looks different than it's even supposed to be pronounced.

[00:16:05] And it's, yeah, it's the same thing in Yuba. It's the same thing in tree. Like a lot of the, you have to learn the alphabet the way that they have it, because if you don't, you're not gonna say the words. Yeah. But yeah, and that's just, and it's hard because, I don't know about Welsh, I don't know too much about the language, but like certain traditions around the world, the language wasn't always super written out.

[00:16:27] It was just like, this is how we say it, and everyone just agrees this is how we say it. But then when it came to colonization, like you said, everybody had to write it. And so it was like I don't know how we're gonna write this. This is a real letter or word. And then you have different you think of different I don't know too much about Shri Acrylic, that's like the Russian Relic.

[00:16:49] Yeah. But like I know in Arabic, there's. Yeah, there's no G in Arabic. There's certain letters that they don't even have and like sounds that we don't use. So it gets hairy when you just [00:17:00] try to write everything in like English or Latin lettering or whatnot.

[00:17:03] Ben: Whatnot. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Certain things get lost. It's so like in Rush we have 28 letters instead of 26. Okay. And it's like the double D and the double L are different letters. And how you pronounce that and it all comes down. And so the reason I have a much easier time. I actually had to watch speech therapist when I was.

[00:17:21] Born. Oh. I was I was born with something called dyspraxia, which is a motor control issue. Okay. So it affects people who are clumsy often have dyspraxia. It's also a neurodivergent piece. Oh. Cause it's a disorder that affects the functioning of ordering of muscles. So it affects different people differently.

[00:17:38] But I actually couldn't speak, I could full fully understand, but I couldn't speak until I was about five years old and I had to go through extent extensive speech therapy. Oh, okay. I have a slight lisp. It's ever so slight now. But I had Walsh speech therapist who also taught me how when I was doing Welsh how to cause we learned Welsh in school, like in Canada, they learned French or like down there.

[00:17:59] You might [00:18:00] learn Spanish or German. Yeah. So double L is slur. So you put your, the tongue at the top of the of the, for throat and your, so like any of the double Ls in, in, in sand where you fill, like it's a big, long one that you see sometimes, right?

[00:18:17] Yeah. So the double oil but like a lot of languages have those Bantu a lot of the Bantu languages in Africa, they have a right. Yes. Yes. And it means very, I think in some languages it's actually an explo okay. It's an exclamation point. So when you're done saying a certain syllable you might click as a way of emphasizing that it's a different tone or whatever it is, right? Yeah. But if you are not used to doing that in your own, in, in your own language, then it would feel awkward. It's Japanese, they, they have very difficult time with ours because there are no RS in Japanese.

[00:18:51] Ashley: Yes. Yes.

[00:18:53] Ben: Interesting. It's very interesting how even something like language can affect so much of who we are.

[00:18:58] Ashley: I know I [00:19:00] love languages. I wish I was like one of these like polyglot people who can speak like seven. I can't, but I just wish, I love it. Like it's and like you're saying like things even the way and so many languages are like about tone.

[00:19:14] You know about, especially I know Chinese is a lot about tone. I used to work with a lot of Chinese people and I'd be like, oh, you guys like, teach me how to say it. Oh, my one coworker, Hong, she's so sweet. She's alright, I'll teach her to say it. I said everything wrong. But there was like one word, and there's four different tones to it.

[00:19:30] And depending on how you say it, it means something different. And the same thing actually in in Yoruba, like my fiance teaches me little things here and there, but there's one word that if you, the way you say it either means like penis, Farm or sea. And I'm like, and every time I say it wrong, Zoe.

[00:19:49] He's oh no, that's the C one when you're trying to say farm, no, that's penis. And I'm like, all right. You know what? I give up, but good time. Yeah. [00:20:00] Yeah. But I love, yes. Language is amazing. How did, okay, what am I gonna ask you next? You're so interesting. You have so many cool things going on.

[00:20:10] Ben: You're asking good questions. You can match me. So is it good? I know,

[00:20:15] Ashley: Okay. Medieval and classical studies, were you always just, did you always just be like, were you always just like a history person? You just like history? I'd say

[00:20:24] Ben: so. Yeah. Bri so British culture, what you've been over them multiple times it sounds you know what it's like, right? Like you can't walk anywhere without medieval history suddenly being in your face. Yeah. And cause it lives culture, people in North America, cuz we don't have that over here. People think, oh my God, you were surrounded by castles and ancient churches and this must be amazing.

[00:20:45] And then you get over there and you're wandering about and people are throwing garbage next to a thousand year old church or pitting on a certain thing. All these things. It's like that in any lived culture. You don't necessarily it's just a part of a landscape for you.

[00:20:57] But because I moved over [00:21:00] and I've only ever been back to the UK once I was working over there. About 14 years ago for an extended period for about six months. I lived practically lived over there again. But but it's one of those because I was detached from it and because I was so homesick, I like home.

[00:21:16] I wanted to be home, yeah. Cause Canada I still don't feel very connected to Canada even after 28 years. Medieval history and kind of all of that, like classical studies, all of that piece reminded me of home because all of those pieces are there. Yeah. Like where I was living in Wales, we were quite close by to Chester, which is one of the oldest Roman cities in, in, in England.

[00:21:36] Yeah. And the far, the little cottage that we lived on the end of a drive was office Dyke and there was also a Roman Road. And so Roman stuff was always around me when I was a kid. Same with medieval stuff. So I was I became very interested in kind of medieval history, but I'm also a history buff too.

[00:21:53] I'm one of those people. I like to, I think it's part of my neuro divergence. I like to see the connections between events. [00:22:00] Of those things. So classical. What? And it it was interesting when I went back to school, I intended to just do, finish my, my, my bachelor's. That's all I wanted to do.

[00:22:13] And and it really fell into place. My school is amazing. I didn't, I'm not going back to the same one I started at, I actually transferred to one that was closer to me when I, where I was living. And I phoned them up on in November and I said, I'm thinking of moving I'm thinking of transferring.

[00:22:28] I have all like this part done. Bachelor's, I was about three quarters of way through my last one. I didn't really want to finish that one. It was in social work. I already had psychotherapy training. I didn't feel like I needed to go back and do an internship and all of this. It would've just been a waste of my time.

[00:22:44] I was already making enough money on my, it was from my psychotherapy work cuz in the, in the meantime, I went and finished my therapy training. So I was like I might go back and just do it for fun cuz I love, I'm a student, I love learning all the time. Yeah. I said, okay, the best way to do that is come into liberal arts.[00:23:00]

[00:23:00] Just do a liberal arts degree and then you can do whatever you want because we would give you 50% transfer credits. So when I got there, I it was great. I loved that. It was like, you know what? It's okay. And where I was, the school was only about like 20 minute walk. It wasn't far away.

[00:23:14] So I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this. I have. The financial ability to do this. I've been paying out of pocket, which is good in a very fortunate position that way. And of course, to your American listeners, I have to say Canadian education is vastly cheaper than down there. Oh yeah.

[00:23:29] Ashley: Cuz everybody right now is this guy is a millionaire. I know, right?

[00:23:33] Ben: Like a hundred thousand dollars you had a hundred thousand dollars. What? No, please hang outta pocket.

[00:23:37] Ashley: Oh my God.

[00:23:39] Ben: No. I was eating noodles for a few months, but, but but yeah I was able to, because Canadian education is cheaper and because, I already had my apartment, so it wasn't like I needed to find a place to live.

[00:23:49] It was, it worked within my lifestyle. So I I transferred to, gave 50% and then suddenly I had half a degree. That was just whatever I wanted. We were all electives. Okay. And so I was [00:24:00] like, okay, I'll pick ones that kind of, supplement when I'm interested in. And then when I actually got into it after my first semester, I had the option to go full-time.

[00:24:08] Cause I started with only two courses and I was like, okay, you know what? I think I might do some Cuz they have a medieval studies course. One of the best in Canada actually. I was like, okay, I'll take some of those courses. And then I started to realize because when I was in university last time I didn't really think about opportunities, but I'm like I'm a little older.

[00:24:27] I understand how universities work and okay. And so I contacted an advisor and I was like I wanna make this into something more than just a liberal arts degree. Like that just didn't seem like it was gonna be anything, right? So I was like I'm interested in taking a minor note.

[00:24:40] And we got talking and then as I started to think about it, I was like, so I asked them, do you allow double dipping? So double dipping is when you can put one course to two different minors. Oh, okay. And they said yes you can cuz a minor a minor is a smaller kind of cluster of courses that give you a designation.

[00:24:59] [00:25:00] Specialization, right? So I was starting with religious studies and I noticed a lot of religious studies courses were cross-listed with classics or with medieval studies or with history. So I was like okay let's sit down here. This is where the neuro neurodivergency really helped.

[00:25:14] Yeah. Down. And I thought, okay, it's only eight courses per per minor. I could probably fit two minors in. And then I read somewhere that I can actually do they told me that I can double dip. So I was like, okay, so four of these courses suddenly cross list with each other. And then as I started to put it together, I realized that in the span of 16 courses, I could actually complete four minors because I all crosslisted with each other.

[00:25:42] I know. When I was in university last time, I was like, what? So I sat with it and I was like, okay, I think I can do this, because then I would be graduating with something a little bit beefier. Yeah. And and I ended up dropping the history one because it just was blase, but I started with religious studies for classics and the medieval.

[00:25:58] Because again, a lot of [00:26:00] them flow into each other. Like Roman history really connects with medieval because that, that, yeah, two periods crossover. And medieval studies had a big list of all sorts of other courses that would be classed as medieval studies. So like English courses, fine arts courses, all of these different things.

[00:26:16] So I was like, okay, I think this is good. And as I got into it in the, in that semester, I was like, yeah, I think I'm gonna do this. So I sat down with an advisor, asked a few more questions, and then I came up with a plan for myself. And now I'm going to be graduating with a liberal arts bachelor degree with minor in medieval studies, classical studies and and and religious studies.

[00:26:37] And the beauty with that is I didn't think of doing a master's. Originally when I first started this was just to get my BA done and that was it. Cause it was always on my bucket list. Yeah. And then when I started thinking about moving back to the uk, I was like I, and we'll get to my book, I'm sure, but I, I fine.

[00:26:55] I've also written a book for all of us too. Yeah. So I was like, ok I want, you're a busy person. I'm a [00:27:00] busy person. But a lot of these threads connect. So in my therapy work and my ancestral work, a lot of that is based on story folklore is, and we talked about oral culture before.

[00:27:10] Folklore is oral culture. Yes. Folklore is the tradition of the people, right? Yes. And so all of those pieces, medieval studies, classical and religious studies, all of them impact folklore. And so I, I'm now in the process of applying to a masters in folklore studies in the place to stop outside London.

[00:27:31] Hers Hertfordshire? No. Okay. Harp just on the top end, like near St. Alban. It's just on the top of London there. So I'm in the process of applying for that. And then that will then feed into all of my, kinda my spiritual work, my writing work, give me a little bit more gravitas and and help me to gimme research skills.

[00:27:51] So a lot of thread. I feel like my whole life is just shred, being woven together in this tapestry.

[00:27:57] Ashley: Yes. Oh my god. That's.[00:28:00] Saying

[00:28:02] Ben: that to me now, I'm like, wow, I wanna know me.

[00:28:05] Ashley: You're like, wow, I'm awesome.

[00:28:08] Ben: You wake up and I'm like, who am I? Who the fuck am I right?

[00:28:13] Ashley: Oh my God, I love that.

[00:28:14] I know. Look how you went from, like you said you started school, then you dropped out and now you're like, you have four minors and then now you're gonna go, oh my God, this is so cool. Now you're gonna go get your master's. And we are so proud of you. I'm saying all of us, because I feel like everybody listening to this is that person's so cool.

[00:28:29] Ben: I tell you what though. And this is where the ancestral work comes in, so this is where the ancestral heating comes in. I, I mentioned before that I was involved with Kumi, so La Kumi for those listening. Yeah. I'm sure many of you listens know what it is. For those who may not be unaware of terms, Kumi is the Afro-Cuban version of Aruba tradition.

[00:28:46] And for two years, when I was doing my PHE training, actually lived with my godfather with his Visha and Osun. He's Crown Hun and Hun is particularly interested. Same with m i r. [00:29:00] Particularly interested in education. They want their children to go in and gain education. And I could feel the hand in that.

[00:29:07] And their, my experience with Kumi really put me back into contact with my own ancestors. So my British heritage, all of the, my, my particular lineage. Yeah. And the message from them again was, stop living in the past. Stop living in that idea of that you are failure. Move into the future. And this is me doing honor to not only the validities, Isha to God to my ancestors, but to myself, to my own orry.

[00:29:35] So it's one of those I'm working on myself because I'm becoming a healthier version of myself in more alignment with that. Yes. Kinda. If that makes

[00:29:47] Ashley: sense. Yes. Oh my God, that's so funny. I work with Hun a lot also in my practice, and I have that same thing, like when I started working with her, she's so all those things seem like things.

[00:29:58] I was like, oh, I can't do [00:30:00] that. And I've never been able to do that. I'm not smart enough. And she's so you didn't try though? And I'm like, oh. She's so maybe if you tried a little harder, you could totally do it. Why are you giving up on yourself? I'm like, it's so true. Just cuz you don't get something, maybe the more traditional way the first time doesn't mean that you can't.

[00:30:18] If you want to, you can go back and do literally whatever you want. Its like, yeah, we're the only ones stopping us, so Oh, that's so cool.

[00:30:26] Ben: The ancestors and the spirits in God, they have a much broader. View of time than we do. Yes. That was the biggest, one of the biggest lessons that I learned in La Kumi.

[00:30:36] And I'm no longer connected with, without Eli. I still I still in contact with my former God to Father, but because I'm moving to the uk it didn't make sense to really put my roots down over here if I'm moving to. But but that was really my biggest takeaway. We also practiced as spirit Ismo, so working with my spirit guide.

[00:30:52] Same thing. They have a much broader view of time, so we need to keep in mind that, we can be very [00:31:00] hyper-focused on the little tiny little piece. They have a much broader view. There's all sorts of stories of shown, particularly where, she will not hurt her children.

[00:31:09] But she will demand a lot from them. Yeah. And if you don't get it right, she'll give you a smack, but in her head and being and having smack might be, having a major mental crisis or having a major injury or whatever. That's fair. Ion, yeah. But her view is, in the long term, you'll be fine.

[00:31:24] This will make you a stronger person. So VMs just justify the means, right? 100.

[00:31:29] Ashley: It's oh my gosh, that's so true. And I try to remind myself of that all the time, like that, me, like I do the same thing. I've for a long time, especially when I was in my twenties I'm 35, so almost your age. So I used to put myself on a timeline I didn't do this at this time, and I haven't had this, or I haven't had this experience.

[00:31:47] And now I'm like, Through a lot of my spiritual work. Also, they've told me the same thing, that we don't care about time. I don't know. They're like, we don't know why humans are so obsessed. Oh my God. They're like, why are you worrying about this? Exactly. Why is this a [00:32:00] problem? And everything will get done when it gets done.

[00:32:02] Like it, it's fine and everything is gonna happen when it's supposed to. So the same thing, like even this podcast, I wanted to do a podcast for the past, like literally seven or eight years. Oh geez. And I just didn't, cuz I was like, that's a dumb idea. Look at me. I'm not that person. I can't do that.

[00:32:17] But then I just did it. So it was like, so it's like I, the whole time I kept telling myself, no, you are not, I don't, I'm not smart enough or I'm, I should just, do what I'm doing and be happy with that. And it's but I wasn't, I wanted more so I. You're so right. Like every, everybody, this is me and Ben are telling you that you can accomplish everything you want.

[00:32:39] Anything you want.

[00:32:40] Ben: That's true. So then, okay, let me give you a psychotherapy question here. Sure. I'm gonna interview you for a bit. I'm ready. So what do you think, ready? You regret this afterwards. What do you think was holding you back and what changed? What shifted for you to be able to step into doing this right now?

[00:32:56] Ashley: Yeah. Let's see. I think because [00:33:00] I, for a long time I always thought I needed like help or I needed somebody to do something with me or I needed Because I always consider myself, like I, I'm good at certain things. I like certain things. My, I always say my muggle job, I'm a nurse so yeah.

[00:33:16] I'm like, okay, I'm okay at that. I went to school for that. I didn't go to, you've gone to college and you've learned all these things about history. I love history and religion and all this stuff, but it's just like a pastime, so I was like, I'm not knowledgeable enough. Nobody cares about anything I think, and.

[00:33:32] All of these subjects that I love to talk about, like they're weird and nobody else wants to talk to me about it, so why would I go and talk to people about it? I just always thought, and also there's a lot of things in my life I feel like I should have accomplished this or been be better at this by now, and I haven't.

[00:33:52] So I'm just like I don't wanna start something else and then disappoint myself, like right again, but then I was like, I think it [00:34:00] was honestly this past year, and a lot of it had to do with my spiritual work. I feel like I did a lot of, Shamanic journeying on it, and a lot of asking questions and being like, what?

[00:34:11] What, why shouldn't I do all these things? And they were like, we don't know why you shouldn't. You're the only person who keeps telling yourself that you shouldn't. Just do something you wanna do and see how it goes. You. And if you don't like it, then you stop. And I'm like, oh, that's it.

[00:34:24] Ben: Yeah. It's just that question of why shouldn't two? Why should I? Yeah. What if?

[00:34:30] Ashley: What if I just liked it and now I like it? So it's always, I'm having so much fun. It's like I, I don't know. I get very involved in this thing that I'm not doing well enough and I'm not smart enough and I'm not good.

[00:34:44] So I get so obsessed with that idea that I stop myself from doing a lot of things. And I'm trying to let go of that now. I'm too. And also the idea that I should have done this before. Why didn't I do this when I was like 20? But I realize now I didn't have the [00:35:00] patience, I didn't have the experience to do a lot of these things.

[00:35:04] I don't know. Yeah. So that's where I'm at. But I'm good now. I'm okay.

[00:35:07] Ben: Happy. I, as a guest, I'm enjoying this, but it's very true. I suppose I see this a lot with my therapy clients. I see this a lot with my spiritual direction clients, and I think you probably do too with your clients, right?

[00:35:18] It's this idea that it's all narrative. It's the, it isn't the looking at possibilities, it's looking at deficits, yes. What you just said just then, why didn't I do it when I was 20? If you had done it when you were 20, you may have regretted doing it or you may not have.

[00:35:36] Yeah. But you being 35 doesn't mean that you've lost that time. Yeah. You being 35 means that you are being 35. I think we get caught in the past so much. That was one of the big takeaways for a lot of my work. With my ancestors. I needed a lot of healing. And the overall I'll give you an example.

[00:35:56] So in 2016, I had seven men come back into my life, guys [00:36:00] who I had some sort of romantic or feeling or strong feelings for. And it was inexplicable how every single one of them came back into my life. Randomly, but it wasn't random, right? And every single one of them brought a piece of healing that I needed or they needed.

[00:36:15] Yeah. And like one example, oh, like even just speaking about is ridiculous. I was sitting in a motel room in the middle of the, of a city that I didn't go to very often, far away from Toronto. It was like three hours away from Toronto. I go to Grindr because, we use the apps, right?

[00:36:30] Absolutely. They're through a dating app. No problem. Yeah. And this guy messages me and he doesn't have a profile pick. And I don't look at all like how I did when I was 18. Yeah. But we get talking. Oh, nobody does, right? Very few people. But we get chatting and we get chatting and it turned out that he was somebody that I had intimate relations with when I was 18 and he was 18 as well.

[00:36:54] And for years he had always thought about me because in his pa in, at that point in his [00:37:00] life, he felt like he was nothing. That he was worthless, that he was disgusting, that he was ugly, all of us. And just us like having that connection for a few months made such a difference to him. And he's always wanted to say that to me.

[00:37:13] And I came back into his life just as he needed to say that to me, and I needed to hear that. Oh, I love that. I needed to hear that as much as he did to. But that happened seven times. Seven times over 2016. And it was ridiculous. And it ended with like really the, one of the biggest impact impactful people in my life coming back into my life after seven years of not talking to him.

[00:37:36] Wow. Wow. And I finally came to understand with my godfather's help to that really was my ancestors pushing these people back into my life because their message was, and I talk about that in my book that I was living in the past too much. I was regretting all of those experiences with those people.

[00:37:53] I was regretting the life that I wasn't living anymore. And in regretting. That lost life. I wasn't living my own [00:38:00] life. So that was their message. Live in the future, don't live in the past. You don't belong there. And it sounds like for you that was a switch for you too.

[00:38:09] Ashley: Yes. Oh my, first of all, that is a nice story.

[00:38:11] It's like it's, yeah, that is beautiful because it does happen sometimes when like you just needed to hear something at that moment, and like you said, you guys both made impacts on each other's lives in that, that's so beautiful. And that's so true. Yes. I also tend to live, and I think it also ha, some of it has to do with that, like being bullied, I think too, I have this, I hands on trauma.

[00:38:35] Yeah. That childhood trauma, because I think. As much as and I always say I give my parents a lot of credit. They really did do their best to try to be like, you are who you are, you're smart, you're this, don't, I'm like, of course I love my parents. They're good people. But in my head it, in it just was in my head, when somebody's telling you you're ugly and you're fat and you're this, and you're that, and you're too this. And you're to that your whole, like childhood, you internalized some of [00:39:00] that absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think even at my age now a lot of it I've healed, but I think there's still little bits of it that's no, I'm not good enough to do that.

[00:39:10] I'm, and I always idealized this is gonna sound real weird, but I think growing up I always idealized like I can't do certain things because I'm not thin and I'm not white and I'm not blonde. So like I should

[00:39:23] Ben: just, oh, that doesn't sound weird at all. Yeah. Okay.

[00:39:25] Ashley: Thank you. Oh, you're so sweet.

[00:39:26] That sounds horrible. Yeah, I was, I think I internalized that. So then there's certain things I was just like I should just never try doing this because I don't look like that. Or, and people are gonna see things about me, so I should just not do it. But yeah, I think now getting older and seeing that wait, you know what I am okay.

[00:39:45] Like I, I do matter to people and I have made a difference, at least in the people I know, and I have good people in my life. So I can do, you know what I like and figure myself out.

[00:39:57] Ben: You've stopped taking responsibility for a [00:40:00] story that wasn't yours. Yes. Yes. Like even in what you just said that I am.

[00:40:05] Okay. You were always Okay. Yeah, that's true. But you weren't, the story that you had accepted wasn't the story that placed you in it. It wasn't your story. It was Pamela Anderson's story by sounds of it.

[00:40:19] Ashley: I thank you for this mini therapy session. I have to pay. Of course. Yeah, for sure.

[00:40:23] Ben: I'll change the later on. But it's true. It ties directly and I've seen your website, it ties directly into your message as well.

[00:40:32] It's the idea of what stories are we all living in, and that's what I love about folklore. Cause folklore is all inclusive. Folklore is sometimes about a people, but it's also about landscape. Anybody in a landscape can be experiencing that story and which case then it doesn't matter where, what your background is, you are in the story itself.

[00:40:56] Yes. That's what I love about folk Flora. Me

[00:40:59] Ashley: too. [00:41:00] Oh my gosh. Oh, okay. So this is amazing. You're the best. Okay, so we're gonna move to our dishes of the week because we could go on about this forever and we will. So that's fine. I love this. So this week our dish of the week, I actually changed Apple Little.

[00:41:19] It's a little different. Instead of having a food, I, since you are coming out with a book about ancestor veneration, I was like, why don't we talk about how we feed our ancestors? False. Yeah. The best way to feed them. So I have just a few little things here. So one way that we feed our ancestors is by making alters for them.

[00:41:42] Ancestral alters are real easy to make. You can put on your alter whatever you want, whether it's your own, from your own spiritual tradition, you can put that up there. And then you can include, what I like to include is items. If I have items from them or items from that [00:42:00] culture put that on my altar.

[00:42:02] And again, you can put, if you into crystals or anything, you can put that on there too. But it's all about how you wanna honor them and it's just remembering them. Remembering who they were and remembering your connection to them. And it's if, have you ever seen Coco.

[00:42:17] Ben: I love cocoa. Okay. I love Coco. And I talk about in my book a lot, so I love Coco. Oh, really? Oh,

[00:42:24] Ashley: I love that. I was, oh God. I love Coco. But yes, like your classic oh friend that from, the Mexican culture remembering those people is the whole point of altars.

[00:42:36] And you can do your altar however you like. Another way, and we talk about a lot about this and like death work and working like with death doulas and stuff we talk about being able to grieve your ancestors. A lot of times sometimes we'll hear the stories of our ancestors and we'll find out there were people who were never grieved.

[00:42:53] And there's tons of reasons that happens, whether it was children who died, whether it was somebody who was estranged [00:43:00] from the family for whatever reason but taking that time to grieve them and almost give them a, like a little memorial for yourself. It could just be reading them a poem or making a little ritual for that person.

[00:43:14] That helps honor your ancestors in a really big way. And it does a lot for your connection. Speaking of them and telling their stories. Just like you're talking about with everything with folklore it gives you, first of all a sense of your own culture and where you come from.

[00:43:28] And telling those stories is just fun. Who like, that's also to hear this story of some crazy thing that happened this, then third bringing them offerings. Things they like if you know that a certain ancestor liked a certain thing, or a lot of people use alcohol, a lot of people in a lot of different cultures use alcohol.

[00:43:47] Walking and just talking to them. The thing that people forget is it's real. And I feel like this is the fault of like major religions and I don't I'm not one of those people who likes to blame major religion for everything. But I will say this our [00:44:00] connection to the spirit world is a one-on-one thing.

[00:44:02] You don't have to go through everybody else. If you wanna talk, just talk. Like

[00:44:07] Ben: they hear you. Yeah I agree. Definitely. Absolutely. There, there are traditional, and this is where the idea of culture comes in. There are traditional ways of talking to the dead. Oh yeah. And that piece is powerful because in using a traditional way of talking to the dad, you're talking to them in a way that they would've used when they were alive too, right?

[00:44:27] Yeah. And so you've got that cultural connection. And this is a, I think where I blanched when you said using memorials for the dead and mourning the dead. One of the distinctions I make in the book between kind of mourning and grief work and ancestor work is and there's a fine line, there's a lot of overlap between them.

[00:44:44] But one of the major differences that, my ancestors are still living now with me. They're present with me. So my work with them isn't as a distant kind of group of individuals who are gone from the world and who I never will access to. So [00:45:00] they're a living presence in my life.

[00:45:01] And so if there a living presence in my life, even though they're in the land of a dead or space of a dead and. What am I mourning? I'm mourning my good point. Like I'm mourning the type of relationship that I don't have with them, that I would have with somebody from the living. But then that's also centering myself in the relationship.

[00:45:20] It's if you came in wearing, a bright blue dress and I was expecting you to wear a bright red dress, I'd be mourning the fact that you're not wearing a blue dress at my wedding. What is this? All of this. That centers me in the relationship. Yeah. And so for me then, that's the big difference between mourning and grief work and ancestor work.

[00:45:37] And that's where grief traditions, cuz grief and mourning traditions are very important. Every religion and every tradition have them, but only for a certain amount of time. And what That's true. Yeah. What I've noticed is that those traditions are usually as a part of ushering that individual into the realm of the dead, right?

[00:45:57] Yes. So if you look at Buddhism whether it is like the [00:46:00] 49 days or you look at Islam where it's like getting them into the ground as soon as possible thing with Judaism. All of those traditions are really about getting that dead spirit to go to where it's supposed to be now.

[00:46:12] So it's not gonna hurt us or impact our the land of a living. And so then, the mor there's a room for mourning, but then with ancestral work, I like to see it as a transitioning point to then, okay, the relationship has changed, let's switch over to that relationship,

[00:46:27] Ashley: yeah, that's a very good point. Yeah. There's a, so that is such a good point. And yes, you're right. There is very You know what? I didn't even think of it this way, which I should have, but thank you for bringing that up. There's very specific things, even in like in Ashanti culture, we have a very specific way of our funerals go a very specific order, and on the eighth day is when we do the burial part and we throw dirt on the grave. And that means it's done. Like we're done now. Like we all have to move forward. But yes, and I think in even [00:47:00] my, I used to do some mediumship classes and I remember the teacher we worked with and she said there is a time limit.

[00:47:09] Like now I'm getting a little more woo. But she was like, there's basically a space of time where this spirit is gonna be able to enter the spiritual realm. And if they. And I don't know how much of this I believe, but I'm just saying what this person told me. But if they don't enter in that time, it's like they are wandering around not knowing where to go.

[00:47:31] And I know like in like my shamanic work, we do a lot of psycho pump work where we move spirits from this world to the next. So I don't know. I never interviewed those spirits and asked them how long did they take you? But yes, that's, and that's why we have those specific traditions in a lot of these different places around the world is because we're like trying to get them up there so that they can become a ancestor because our ancestors are very helpful.

[00:47:56] Yes.

[00:47:57] Ben: They're meant they're supposed to be helpful, right? Yeah. Yeah. They're very [00:48:00] helpful.

[00:48:00] Ashley: Yeah, there are. And that is also, and I'll get what you think about this, but that's what I always say, like the difference between. Ancestral wor, there's a difference between ancestral worship and ancestral veneration.

[00:48:13] And my thing, I think the difference is when you worship something like a deity, you're saying that this deity is the one that's gonna do this, and that. To me, ancestral veneration is saying that these spirits are way closer to the source creator, God, whichever one you call them than me and they know a lot of the more secrets of the universe than I know because I'm here in the world and living a very worldly life and they're up there or wherever they are Asking them for things or asking them for advice and that kind of thing, and saying, oh my gosh, you guys are not physically here on this plane, but you're there.

[00:48:50] Do you think you could help me out? If that's what you're asking them for, I think makes sense. And that's what I think is Federation. You're saying, wow this ancestor, this person I'm related to has gained [00:49:00] so much knowledge and I am here to honor that knowledge. And I don't know how you feel about that, but you can tell me.

[00:49:09] Yeah.

[00:49:09] Ben: I think this is coming back to what we were saying about the limitations of language, right? Because and this is part of the decolonization work and I've been doing for myself. When looking at cuz with my book, I went. Around the world and looked at examples from around the world.

[00:49:24] That was really important for me because I didn't want to just center one tradition. This my book, ancestral Whispers, is all about getting people to think about their relationships from an organic point of view, from a culturally sensitive, grounded view. Yeah. And something that is organic that emerges outta worldview.

[00:49:43] And so I think this is where the difficulty with language and then translating relationships that are not couched in an English lens. Yes. In English. Because the difference between worship and veneration depends on how you conceptualize the ancestors. So in many cultures there is no distinction [00:50:00] between God and ancestor because Yeah.

[00:50:02] We all are on a continuum. So I have friends in Haitian Voodoo and when you really look at v the are ancestors, like a lot of the MOA come down in per in possession are actually Haitians who were fighting in Haitian Revolution, right? Yes. They are Orisha, they are voodoo spirits. They are indigenous spirits.

[00:50:26] And they also are ancestors too. Everybody, or at least. My understanding is every initiated GaN or Mambo become a lua when they die. And so it's that idea of, okay, how do you then translate that relationship, that conceptualization of spirit and that categorization of spirit into English, which is so couched in the Judea Christian point of view.

[00:50:47] Yes. So that's I, for your listeners then I would strongly suggest, and I talk about that in the book too is really thinking about worldview, because all worldviews [00:51:00] are valid for anybody who follows those worldviews. But yes, worldview and practice has to be linked. And so with your worldview that you were talking about, you said there's a difference between veneration and worship.

[00:51:12] Veneration acknowledges that these ancestors are closer to a divine source and so can work more like saints, right? Yeah. Yeah. Objects of worship themselves. Then when it comes to practice, then how does veneration then impact how you relate, how you give offerings, how you communicate, how you work with versus worship, whereas there are traditions where the ancestors are deities.

[00:51:36] Like in Australia for example, a lot of the gods of Australia, and I hate to use that word for the dream time spirits. But a lot of the gods of Australia are seen as ancestral because they were the primordial sources of all of the creatures that now exist now. And so in a very literal sense, they are ancestors, they are great-grandfather.

[00:51:54] Great-great-grandmother and so on. And so you would honor them the same way. At least my understanding [00:52:00] in those cultures is you honor them the same way that you would honor your elders.

[00:52:04] Ashley: Yes. That, yeah. So it's so I'm also like doing a lot of the more I learn and the more I develop different things.

[00:52:13] All this decolonization is coming out and it gets very complicated because sometimes I feel that to explain things, I don't want to say it in a way that's gonna freak people out. So it's true, like you said. Yeah. Like worship and veneration, like you're just, everything you said is completely true.

[00:52:31] Depending on the cultural context, it can be the same thing. But then certain people, if I'm working with somebody who is they've been born, this specific tradition, like I was raised Catholic, so a lot of the time when I explain things, I tried to explain it in a lens of not idolatry ish.

[00:52:48] I don't wanna freak people out. But what you're it's it gets so complicated, but that's why this work is so important, because it's important for us to be able to go, I feel like one really [00:53:00] good thing about our age right now is people are really interested in going back Yes.

[00:53:03] And seeing how things are working. So those distinctions that you just made are so important. So thank you for saying that.

[00:53:10] Ben: Absolutely. Yeah. And if I can add a point on that, then Yes. What thinking about that then? It actually is an opportunity like that that complicity and being complicated is actually an opportunity to develop very multifaceted relationships with ancestors.

[00:53:27] A friend of mine up in here in Canada, she has Irish and Anishnabe heritage. And she was talking about this at a camp once about how she has to be very intentional when she's offering alcohol to her ancestors. Cause in those cultural contexts, alcohol means something completely different.

[00:53:43] In the Irish context, it's a form of community building. People come together and drink together and it's a jolly merry making opportunity. It's a bonding of Vienna nabe. It was poison. Yeah. And so she's very complicit in not [00:54:00] complicit. It's very intentional with when she's offering alcohol. These are for my Irish ancestors.

[00:54:06] But they may enjoy a drink on me versus for the ancestors and, having her anishnabe ancestors, giving her a side eye. Yeah,

[00:54:15] Slowly. And for my own way of working with my ancestors, so like, when I was practicing La Kumi we worked with EG Shrine, we worked with very particular Afro-Cuban offering service, which really related to the middle passage.

[00:54:29] All of the elements on it were very particular and had developed within their culture to honor the ancestors who had died coming over on the boats. And like the elements for symbols all related to the struggle, there was sugar or molasses in water as a, as a symbol of that.

[00:54:44] There was coffee, there was run by all of that. My English ancestors, my British ancestors aren't connected to that at all. Yeah. They went along with it because of virtue of me understanding it. Yes. But then creating or recreating my ancestral, wor ancestral work to be more connected [00:55:00] to my British ancestors, I now offer mt.

[00:55:03] Because Tina is such a culturally connected thing over there. Yeah. Like my grandparents loved it, but where I get some into mindfuck territory is that, the more you go back, the more your image of what your ancestors are starts to shift and change. And then suddenly it's okay, a thousand years ago I had ancestors all over Europe, 2000 years ago I may have had African or Middle Eastern ancestors and so on.

[00:55:24] Yeah. Eventually, it's the whole story of the whole world. And if you are. That's the relationship between who are you relating to, what is the dynamic and eventually just building a practice that will honor all ancestors. And if some of them have issues with then, they can deal in with the over millions of ancestors that we're honoring.

[00:55:42] Exactly.

[00:55:42] Ashley: Everybody will figure it out. Okay, this is a part of the show where I'm gonna plug myself and then we'll get back into it. So if you guys enjoy the show, you can follow me on socials. I'm at Di with Divine on Instagram and Facebook. And if you really like this show, you can give us a five star rating [00:56:00] on whatever platform you listen to it, that helps other people find it.

[00:56:03] And if you have any questions or comments please feel free to email me at di with the divine gmail.com. Okay, next section. Okay.

[00:56:13] Ben: And a note on that, she's very quick in getting back to people too, so

[00:56:18] Ashley: I try, I'm like, oh, somebody wants to talk to me. Awesome. So the next thing I was gonna talk about is this is our little tea time where we talk about something educational.

[00:56:29] It's all been educational, but whatever next. So I was just gonna talk about how there's different types of ancestors, right? I was, before I really got into a lot of ancestor work before, when I think of ancestors, you just think of like your blood relatives, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:44] These are your ancestors, the people you're related to. But then I always thought, so how do people feel, who may be adopted or they don't know where their blood ancestors are from that kind of thing, or they don't know who they are. That's fine. We [00:57:00] got you. Don't worry. Me and Ben are gonna handle it.

[00:57:02] So you have different types of ancestors, so you can have your ancestors of blood and then you can have ancestors of place. So you can, if you know that your family is from a certain area or this particular place. I know I grew up with a friend from school and he was adopted, but he knew his family was from this specific tribe in Columbia.

[00:57:24] You can connect with those people by doing research on it, and if you ever have the chance or ability to go visit that place, that's always wonderful. But the internet, it's great. Like you can do research, you can find that, and these are the people that, your fa the location where your family's descended from.

[00:57:41] You could also call it ancestors of the land, that particular area. And it may be comprised of different ethnic groups, but if you know the general area, you can research them and learning those customs can bring you closer. Even if you don't know specifics, it can still bring you closer to those ancestors.

[00:57:58] And, like we said before, you [00:58:00] could make an alter. You can do whatever works for you to connect with them. Then we also have, and I read this, I actually got this from a different ancestral book by Nancy Hendrickson. She talks about ancestors of time. So if you. Now, some people, I guess don't believe in past, past lives, but I do.

[00:58:21] So if you've had past lives you can connect with your ancestors from the past lives that you've had. If you know the areas where that is you can connect with those people. And the other thing is ancestors of what they call like ancestors of affinity. So these are ancestors of, can be different.

[00:58:44] Your ancestors of your vocation. Say you are a musician, you're a guitarist, and you like Jimmy Hendrix could be your ancestor technically cuz it's, you're a guitarist and you love guitar. And he was a guitarist. You have teachers or cultural heroes?[00:59:00] A lot of people talk about Marsha p Johnson being an ancestor, of the queer community and different kinds of teachers, and we have ancestors of different spiritual traditions.

[00:59:11] Like for instance, Buddhist monks who have ancestors who were different Dalai Lamas and things like that. And then you have friends. Your friends can be your ancestors because they were your chosen family. Yes. Yes. So you don't just have one type of ancestor. If people are like I don't know where my family's from and this and that's totally fine.

[00:59:29] You don't, that's not the only way that you can connect with the past and connect with who you are and Absolutely. Yeah. All these connections, just like you've heard me and Ben talk about for the past hour All these connections bring you closer to your own purposes and to, you making your life more full and finding more answers in your own life.

[00:59:52] So you can find these answers tons of different ways. There's not just one way. Everybody just wanted to let you know that.

[00:59:59] Ben: [01:00:00] Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I would mirror all of those, echo all of those. For me, the biggest learning point when it came to ancestor work, because, ancestors aren't the only spirits I work with.

[01:00:10] I work with spirits in the land, I work with deities, I work with all sorts of different beings. And what it came down to for me was the understanding of relationships, right? So when you think of the definition of an ancestor, it is those who preceded us and those who contributed to our world, right?

[01:00:26] And when I think about ancestors, and I talk about that in, in my book this whole chapter on different forms of ancestors and expanding that concept of ancestor because people get locked into this idea of blood relatives. Yes, that works for some cultures. But when you think of other cultures like you are from, or part of your background is Jamaican culture.

[01:00:45] How many aunties do you actually have? Oh my God.

[01:00:47] Ashley: Yeah. Oh yes, exactly. And if anybody doesn't know what he's saying, a lot of in and I don't know other cultures I can't say, but in a lot of West African cultures and Caribbean cultures, pretty much any older adult is your [01:01:00] auntie or your uncle.

[01:01:01] So that's just, and p growing up, people be like, how many cousins do you have? I'm like, I don't know. Like a lot like is it ok? I know I have aunties and uncles who I to this day don't know if I'm actually related to them. But I know that's my auntie and that's my uncle ya and all this stuff.

[01:01:15] And

[01:01:15] Ben: this is a very typical collectivist approach to culture, right? And like individualism is really a very western recent thing. Yeah. Vast majority of all cultures have been collectivist. And that idea of relationship, then it doesn't matter then if, you know your uncle ya or your auntie Yay or whoever, right?

[01:01:34] Yeah. Is is blood related to you? They contin, they contributed to who you are. In the same way that, cultural figures, folkloric, heroes the sky, the land, the sea, all of those contributed to who we are. Yeah. And this is why when you look at deities, this is going back to that continuum of spirit.

[01:01:52] What is the difference between say y Isha y who is the ocean or a good part of the ocean. What is [01:02:00] a difference between her who is the mother of all Isha? And, our mothers in life our ancient ancestors, our primordial ancient ancestors evolved within the ocean.

[01:02:10] So we can literally say that at least from that point of view. Yema art is an ancestry in that way. Yeah. And so then the relationship piece is there. So looking at relationship as as those who contributed to who you are can explain then the power of affinity ancestors. In nursing, for example.

[01:02:29] Florence Nightingale created the modern western concept of nursing. I'm sure that you did a full course on, on Florence and her history, right? Florence. Yeah. She's vivid figure. But whenever you do whatever you're doing in your work, she is present because her hand actually put all that together.

[01:02:46] She is an ancestor. Yes. This is why I love This is why I love looking at and exploring and hearing the stories of people who come from like spirit based cultures. There's a cult down or a religion down in Venezuela [01:03:00] called the cult, Maria Leona. And that is a perfect example of what we're talking about with affinity ancestors.

[01:03:06] Here, there are courts of spirits and they're all led by very particular powerful cultural heroes of the the cult of physicians, of the Court of Physicians is a space where all physicians eventually will end up and they all lend this combined spiritual power to the healing process. And it's led by one of the most famous doctors in Venezuela.

[01:03:28] And so that in, in itself, it shows the idea of affinity ancestors. Anybody who's a physician can call upon. And I feel like his name is Don Pedro. I should know this, but it's all coming outta my head right now. But no, I feel like I've heard of that and was standing there, they can call upon the ancestral guiding hand of this doctor.

[01:03:48] Same with you. You could call on Florence Nighting day, give you the strength to go through that day, right? And that relationship there. But of course you wouldn't go to Florence Nightingale when you're asking a more domestic [01:04:00] situation, right? Yeah. Because it's you don't have a relationship with her.

[01:04:03] Same with other forms of ancestor. I actually talk about how fictional characters can be ancestors. Yes. Because if we're inspired by them and they give us if they contribute to who we become, then they are ancestral to who we've become in a way. Yes. And so then honoring, how do you honor these the these types of affinity ancestors, these conceptual ancestors, I like to call them.

[01:04:27] So when it comes to adoptive people and this is, any. Any group, particularly African Americans in North America. This is a big issue. Yeah. Because so many of the records don't go back, don't record. They don't know the names of their ancestors. But they know that they were buried in particular graveyards.

[01:04:44] And so those graveyards spaces become really important. But when you look at what ancest what ancestral story is, if you go back so many generations, I think it's like something like eight generations. Eventually you have ancestors who are connected to [01:05:00] all parts of the community. Yeah. And so your individual family story becomes the story of the whole community, the whole tribe, whole landfall kingdom.

[01:05:08] And so then in that way, even though you may not know who your individual ancestors were, you know that your ancestors were part of all of this history. And so then the whole of that history is your story. And that's a way of working with ancestors in that way. Yes.

[01:05:25] Ashley: If that makes sense.

[01:05:26] Yeah, no, it makes so much sense. Yes. Oh, I love that.

[01:05:31] Ben: And yes, from that, this is why oral culture is so powerful and folklore, again, coming back to folklore because the individuals are subsumed into collective. We often see this in spec, specifically in West African cultures. And other areas around the world, SIA and Austral and South America, the individual ancestors eventually, once they pass outta living memory, they subsumed into the collective ancestors.

[01:05:57] But the ancestors[01:06:00] are connected with frameworks of story and oral narrative. So an example might be Weblo people in southwestern United States. And their kina spirits, and I love the Kachinas. These are the masked figures that come dancing. Every single one of them is like 200 or 400 of them, depending on how you look at them.

[01:06:21] And every single one of them has a story. Every single one of them has a niche within the community. My understanding is that every single one of them eventually absorbs the individuals who would've been following them. So when you are working with particular Kachina, you are also working with all the ancestors connected to that caina.

[01:06:38] So it's it becomes a relationship between individual identity and collective identity. But the vast majority of the world's cultures collective identity is more important than individual identity, right?

[01:06:49] Ashley: Yes. Yes. And you know what that also reminds me of too like I said My fam, like my mom's family's from Jamaica and the first time I read [01:07:00] about the Maroons I was like, oh and again, I don't know if my family, not that I know of is from that area in Jamaica, which is called Cockpit Country where a lot of them were, but. I instantly felt this like connection with them, number one because they were in Jamaica. And also because a lot of them were Ashanti people and my, my dad's as Shanti, so I felt this oh my God. And I read everything I could find about it. So that is that again, that collective kind of thing because I don't know specific, but I'm sure if I look back long enough's.

[01:07:33] Yeah. Like they were on the island. My family was on the island. Somebody probably knew one of them. So I think

[01:07:40] Ben: that way, this is the, this is where the real mind fuck comes in. Yes. If there was a wave, it may not be unfortunately, but if there was a way to track back, you may find that a single person shows up multiple times on your family tree.

[01:07:52] So your Jamaican Ashanti, maroon ancestors and your Ashanti ancestors in West [01:08:00] Africa could have had a common source.

[01:08:02] Ashley: Yes. And I always think about that and I'm like, man, that'd be so cool. One day, maybe I'll put my foot down and do more of my genealogy work. But I've done some and that's always fun. I like it.

[01:08:12] But

[01:08:13] Ben: rabbit holes, you just get lost.

[01:08:15] Ashley: You can get lost forever in records and stuff, but I love it. So we're gonna go to our story time because you mentioned something that made me think of what our story time is about. And I was like thinking before I was like, oh, what could we talk about?

[01:08:28] There's seven different things I wanted to talk about, but I ended up with this because you're going to get your master's in folklore. So I was like, we're gonna talk about something that has heavily folklore, so we're talking about also. Ancestors, that could be just characters. And today our character is Shazad.

[01:08:43] We're gonna talk about, now, if anybody's never heard of Shazad, I'm sure you've heard of the book 1,001 Nights, or some people call it 1,001 Arabian Nights. This is a collection of stories, and this was written, they think some people say it's, [01:09:00] the stories may have started being written in like the ninth century and probably to like the 11th century, which they call like Islamics Golden Age.

[01:09:08] So it was still in like the Middle Ages technically, but it was just in Asia. Now, a lot of these stories come from the area of Iraq, Iran And I should say I, Iraq and Iran. I don't wanna sound so American, Iraq. I can't stand that. Americans love to say that, and I have to stop saying that. I

[01:09:27] Ben: don't even, you're from New Jersey too, shouldn't you?

[01:09:29] Shoulda a New Jersey accent, I

[01:09:31] Ashley: know, but I, it drives me crazy and I hear people say Iraq and Iraq, it's just annoying. Ok, come on. Now I'm like, I gotta do better for the collective. A lot of these stories span from that area from like Persia all the way to like western China. So that big area, sometimes people call it this Asian step area.

[01:09:56] A lot of that's where a lot of the stories are from. And if you didn't, I remember [01:10:00] when I was younger, I read some of the stories. I was like Western China. But when we're talking about Western China, we're not talking about like the Hanh Chinese people we're talking about More of like you've heard of like the Uyghur people.

[01:10:11] Yeah. Or the Kazak people who are everywhere. Kazakh people are everywhere in Central Asia. They're, it's so cool. I love reading. I'm like low key, obsessed with Kazak culture because they have the eagles and like horseback. They're just really cool. Yeah. They're really cool people.

[01:10:28] Okay, so we're gonna start our story. On a low note, everybody trigger warning, there's a lot of murder here, but not that much. We're not gonna go super into it, but there's some murder. So there was this king and his name was King Shariar. And he had a wife and his wife cheated on him.

[01:10:44] So he got super upset about this, actually. His wife. Okay. So his wife. His brother's wife cheated on his brother first, and then his wife cheated on him. So now he, because he was a weak cis het man, he lost all faith in women. So he was [01:11:00] like, I hate women now. So he killed his wife. He beha her.

[01:11:06] Now he had this stupid, horrible idea that he was like, I hate women now. So what I'm gonna do is every single night I'm gonna marry a new woman, and every morning I'm gonna have her be headed because I hate women. Great. Terrible. So his visier is like basically the king's personal assistant.

[01:11:24] His right hand man had to find a new virgin. Cause young people are obsessed with virgins, a virgin every single night so that he could marry her and they could do the do, and then he could kill her in the morning. So this went on for like about a year or two. Now the Visier hated this. He didn't enjoy doing this.

[01:11:44] He wasn't this bad of a guy, but this was his job. So either if he didn't do it, he was gonna die, right? So at a point, all the local women figured out that this is bad. All the families figured out this is happening and a lot of them moved away, or they were hiding their [01:12:00] daughters from the king. So one night the Visier realizes he can't find anymore virgins and he doesn't know what to do.

[01:12:07] So he's panicked cuz he knows in the morning he's gonna die. So he's probably in his local outhouse throwing up. And his daughter, her name is Shaza, she hears him. Vomiting. And she's dad, what's going on? And the dad is let me tell you the t what's actually happening in this kingdom. So she tells him this, what's going on?

[01:12:28] And she, her thoughts, like she had heard this was happening, but she didn't really believe it. She just thought it was like a weird rumor. And she's oh my God, this is so bad. And the dad's yep, so I'm gonna die tonight. Love you. Bye. And she's I'm not letting this happen. You're not gonna die.

[01:12:43] This is what we're gonna do. Tell the king I'm gonna marry him. And of course, her dad was like, no, you're not. I'm not gonna let you do that. I'm not gonna let this happen to you. And she's dad, I got a plan. The thing about Sharza is she was super, super smart. She read a lot of books. She to the point that even [01:13:00] her dad was like, Sharza, you've gotta do other things and read books, because she loves reading.

[01:13:04] She was a reader. She read and read. So her dad was like, I really don't like this. And she's just let me do it because I have to. I wanna end this. I'm not gonna have this keep happening here. This is crazy. So her dad was like, okay, fine. So meanwhile, by while she was talking to her dad, her sister had overheard the whole conversation.

[01:13:26] Her sister's name's Za and Za starts crying and she's Shara's not, I don't want you to die. I love you. You know we're sisters, sheriff side's. I'm not gonna die. I'm gonna figure this out. You just have to help me with the plan. Fine. So Deza is absolutely, I'm gonna help you, whatever you need.

[01:13:42] So the next day, the Viser, that's Shahara Dodd's dad goes to his boss and he says, Kings Shaar, you, I got another version for you. It's my daughter. And Kings Shaar is you know what I do to these ladies, right? And he's yeah, I know, but this is what's gotta happen. So the King's okay, [01:14:00] fine.

[01:14:00] So they get Shazad ready, she gets married, they go to the bed chamber, they do the douche sha Herod's oh, this is stupid, but whatever. And then afterwards she's can I use the bathroom? And he's okay. The king's fine. She goes, use the bathroom. She comes out and she's like hysterically crying.

[01:14:18] She throws herself at the king's feet and she's please. I know I'm gonna die tomorrow, but can you just let me see my sister? And he's oh, okay. If you calm down sure. Just stop crying. You're doing a lot. So Shaha on whistles for her sister. Her sister comes in, her sister's crying.

[01:14:36] She's not crying. They hug and her sister Za is like, Shaha on, please just do me a favor. Can you just tell me a story? I won't be able to sleep tonight. I'm just like, such a mess. And Shaza is yeah. She goes, she looks at the king and she's do you mind if I tell her a story if she stays in here for a minute?

[01:14:53] And the King's sure. He's just make it a good story. Don't be boring. And she's okay. And she [01:15:00] saraza's that's no problem. You're gonna love this story. There's magic, there's murder, there's intrigue. So she starts talking now. In 1,001 Arabian Nights. There are a whole bunch of stories, but I'm just gonna, I'm not gonna tell you all of them cuz it will take forever.

[01:15:18] So I'm just gonna tell you some of the most popular ones. So the first one that you probably, everybody probably has heard of is Aladdin. It's very, it's different. It's not as tame as a lot of Disney movies are not, the real story is not that tame especially, sorry. Side note, if anybody ever reads like the Real Beauty and the Beast, it's weird.

[01:15:39] Like it's a very weird story. There's like weird pedophilia in it and it's just real weird. But anyway, that's another story for another time. But Back to what we're talking about. So there's Aladdin and actually Aladdin in Arabian Nights actually happens in Western China, which is pretty interesting.

[01:15:59] [01:16:00] There's a story, oh, Alibaba and the 40 Thieves in 1,001 Arabian Nights. We have a lot of other stories and a lot of the stories involve gin like genie's, that is the anglicized name of gin. There's a lot of magic, there's a lot of intrigue, a lot of murder. Some assault. There's a lot of really not kosher subjects, but the whole point, and we talked about this earlier, about like cultural context and stuff.

[01:16:28] Shaza Shazad was trying to keep herself from dying. That's the whole point of the story, right? So in order to satisfy the, like lust for murder that this king had, she had to tell these like really intense stories. So she tells all these stories and then at the end, so she spends 1,001, that's why it's called 1,001 Arabian Nights, telling the Stories.

[01:16:51] And if you read them, each story pretty much leads into the next story. So she, Shazad is like the originator of the [01:17:00] cliffhanger. She started it because because every story, even when I've read the book, like you want, you're like, okay, then what happens? But she's oh, I gotta take a nap.

[01:17:09] And you're like, damnit Zod. You're like, I need to know how the story ends. So she did this right for 1,001 nights. At the end of all it, the last night she's okay, my story's down. And the King's okay, that was a good story. And then she like calls in. At this point she hair side has had two, three kids, like it's been 1,001 nights.

[01:17:30] So she calls in her kids and she's like hugging them in front of the king, and she's king, I have one request. And he's what? And she's don't murder me. And meanwhile, right this whole time he hasn't murdered anybody cuz he's been married to Shahar son. So she's don't murder me. And he's yeah, I wasn't gonna, and she's oh my God, I wish you had told me that a while ago.

[01:17:48] I've been telling these stories for years. So this is how Shahar ended up saving everybody else in the kingdom. And the king ended up liking her story so much that he had his court, recorders, I guess [01:18:00] come and write them all down and create this book. Now these stories weren't translated into English until the 17 hundreds.

[01:18:07] Yeah. But and a lot of the stories wouldn't like age. If you read them you'll be like, this is really messed up. It is. But again, we have to look at the time that Shahar Isard was living and what she was trying to do. She's trying to save her kingdom. And also a lot, the stories are about oppressors and the oppressed.

[01:18:26] And the stories are coming from a woman's perspective. So a lot of the time this, at this time, these women didn't have a lot of rights. And the only way, a lot of the stories you'll see, a lot of the ways that people get out of it is not by brute force, it's by cunning, it's by wisdom, it's by using that kind of thing.

[01:18:43] So when you take that and you think oh, okay. In one, in the podcast I actually listened to about it, they talk about how they think like sh the character Shahar side put a little bit of herself in each story. Because what she was trying to do was not die and all the stories involved, the oppressors and the [01:19:00] oppress, and she was being oppressed by this king.

[01:19:01] So it's just really interesting to listen and go through the stories and hear you feel like you are there when you listen to these stories and you really understand the cultural context. But Shaher is on saved herself now. I don't think I'm, I couldn't really figure out if she was a real person.

[01:19:18] I don't think she was, and I don't, she may have been and but these stories also may have been written by like a whole bunch of different people. Either way, yeah, Shazad is a great folklore ancestor because she literally used her smarts and her wits and her stories to save all these people.

[01:19:36] So we love Shazad. And her name is

[01:19:39] Ben: cool. She is amazing. I do love Shera. That yes, there, there's an interesting there's an interesting kind of organic process that's going on with that particular story. So you mentioned it wasn't translated into English until the 17 hundreds. That's true.

[01:19:52] And what they were translating was the Arabic, middle Eastern context of these stories. Now, what's interesting in [01:20:00] particular with the thousand one Arabian Knight, is that the what that, what the structure of that story is? It's called A Frame Tale. Okay. So frame tales are, and there's multiple different very multiple big examples of these around the world.

[01:20:16] What frame tales are very story that. Have stories contained within them. The Canterbury Tales. Yes. Thousand one Arabian Knight. The Pancha Tantra, which is a really big one from India. Vi Tales from Buddhism. All of these different, actually, the Pata from Yuba tradition, same thing.

[01:20:36] All of it is a body of knowledge and wisdom. That is framed within a frame tale. And so if we think about the context of how a lot of these stories would've been told, they wouldn't have been read, they would've been performed by minstrels, troubadours, bards, roaming around. Yes. In the Middle East.

[01:20:56] That was a big thing. Because it was a very highly literate [01:21:00] culture. Like Golden Age of Islam is a beautiful example. A very high sophist, a sophisticated culture. Yeah. But it was also a very strongly oral culture because that's the origin of Quran. The Quran was originally spoken. And even now, you have if you go to anywhere in the Middle East and even in North America here in and and Europe, you will find You will find people who have memorized the entire Quran Yes. So that they can recite it because it's meant to be heard. A lot of sacred texts are like that.

[01:21:31] They're meant to be heard, not read. So with frame tales, what's interesting is that a lot of the stories in the thousand and one Arabian knives are actually show up in other frame tales, but they are on the outside very different. The core elements are all the same. And so as you were telling this story, I was picking up something I, I had put together for a class I was teaching on the evolution of frame tales.

[01:21:54] But folklore is interesting. Fairytales are interesting because the study of folk tales [01:22:00] is very much like biological not biological engineering. It's biological evolution. So they tend to look at the, at story through the lens that of evolution. When you piece all the pieces together, 1,001 Arabian Knight is actually founded 2000 years earlier in India.

[01:22:17] And the same stories, a lot of the same stories show up in the Pan Tantra, which is the five Tantras, but it's fd. Wow. And so what happens is you think merchant culture around the world, right? Europe and India were not connected directly, but they were connected through the Salt Road. Same with Islam.

[01:22:34] Yes. And like the Middle East and all of those caravans of merchants and that those travelers would mean telling each other stories. And so what happened was stories were picked up and assimilated. Both through a literary form in ve Noble, like among the nobility, and also as as wandering, like whenever a wandering bar had told a story to a new place, a bar in that area would've picked up a story and [01:23:00] tweaked it to fit the local culture and so on. So a lot of like fairytales in like grims fairytales in Germany. When you look at the core elements of them, and this is how folklores tend to study them is they look at the core elements and they look at the core tropes and then they can see, okay, this story over here involving an elephant and a lion is very similar to this one over here between a mermaid and a dragon.

[01:23:26] Yeah. Except that, Vera not the same, but what they're doing is the same. What they're saying is the same, the flow of the story is the same. So it's very interesting. And frame tales are very important that way because what they do is they become containers for a huge number of different stories for the van gathered.

[01:23:42] And so you actually have various different versions of like 1,001 Arabian nights that contains slightly different stories here and there, depending upon the region. And that's the power of folklore is that it lands, it assimilates information from the outside. Runs in the culture. So some of the stories [01:24:00] that are in the thousand mon Arabian nights are very relevant to Muslim and Islamic culture.

[01:24:05] But when you translate that to Norfor American culture or like European culture in 17 hundreds, like you were saying, it, it's weird because the symbols have been tried to be translated directly as opposed to assimilated by European culture. Yeah. So if you look at Riff House Mon Arabia nights, some of those stories actually appear in different forms, in different cultural forms in Cha's rec Canterbury Tales.

[01:24:29] And so it's very interesting how that process has gone. But you wouldn't necessarily know it because your experience with Canterbury details, your understanding of the cultural elements in there, and they're normal to you. Yeah. You can Arabian nights and, a lot of pieces are very differently.

[01:24:44] Why is he killing his wife? What is that? It doesn't make any sense. But in that cultural context, there's more deeper meaning to that. Very interesting how that works.

[01:24:53] Ashley: It is. Oh my gosh, yes. Oh my gosh, that's so interesting. And it makes me think of, and I'm gonna say this [01:25:00] all wrong but it makes me think of like, when I was in school and maybe when you were in school too, we all had to read like the epic of Gil.

[01:25:07] And then we had to learn about like the hero's journey and how this is one of the first books that kind of framed the Hero's Journey for every other book ever. But it's similar. Gil Match is a totally different story, but if you look at a hero's journey in many other, even in you look at tarot cards and things like that.

[01:25:26] Totally. Yeah. Yeah. It's the same thing. It's the same kind of story just with different characters in a different place and everything, all that kind of stuff. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, and the other quick note, I wanted to say really quick about stories just cuz there's another connection we talked about in a different episode, king Solomon and in King Solomon, we talked about how he had these 72 demons and he put 'em in a bottle one time.

[01:25:49] And then in Aladdin and in a lot of different stories, genie are in containers and the container that King Solomon put, he threw it into the sea. It shows up in a [01:26:00] lot of different stories later on. So it also connects to religion in that way too, Judaism. But yeah, I just wanted to mention that cuz when I was reading I was like, huh, look at that.

[01:26:10] I was like, another connection. That's so interesting. There are

[01:26:14] Ben: Very few stories that haven't been told. You just have to recognize them,

[01:26:18] Ashley: right? Yes. Yeah, I know. That's the same way sometimes I think about music. I'm like, there's only so many notes. How many combinations can we make before we run out?

[01:26:27] But. We keep

[01:26:29] Ben: it. That's true. Yeah. But I think an example of like with with different culture, right? So like the same song can be sung by different artists, but they put their own lilt on it, right? Yes. And like sometimes what you are really looking for is those differences, those lilt, those that way of expressing certain tone, right?

[01:26:46] Is it acapella or is it with music accompaniment? And each one have difference, even though the meaning is the same. Yes. You connect with one more than the other,

[01:26:54] Ashley: yes. It's the same way. I'm, I like Outlander. I'm like really big. I love Outlander. Oh my god.

[01:26:59] I love Outlander. Love Outlander. [01:27:00] Oh my god, Jamie, come for me. Oh my God. But like they have, I know, right? They have like every the opening song. They have it. I found it like on iTunes they have it like different versions. So they have the Caribbean one when they were in the Caribbean, they have one.

[01:27:21] Oh yes. Yeah. They have the Appalachian coral one, they have the French one, and every single, it's the same song, but every single one sounds completely different. Yeah. And you connect with each one different. I really like the Caribbean one cuz it has drums in it.

[01:27:34] Ben: So it's interesting.

[01:27:35] So an amatural connection there. So there's emerging research, there's a researcher in Scotland who is a musical linguistic, and so she studies particularly the connection between linguistics and music. And she's come out with, and she's demonstrated at least that the style of music you find in cult like classical not classical music, but like cultural ethnic music.

[01:27:58] When you look at the tones [01:28:00] and the type of music that is is seen as being like, pleasing to the ear and like that's the classical music of that particular ethnic community. Any ethnic community around the world. When you look at that, there's actually very similar tones to vent accent and how people speak.

[01:28:14] Wow. And so what they're hearing, what she's postulating is that when you listen to for example, Irish music, right? The fiddle. Very similar to how Irish Ensa, same with drums. When you listen to Yoruba, like Nigerian. Typical Nigerian oh, hello and hello, welcome. Yes. That was more Indian. I apologize. But it's like very it's pretty good actually. It's punctuated. Each one is like a drum beat boom. It's very interesting that isn't it? So there's a lot of interesting research that, and it comes back to that psychology.

[01:28:42] We tend to talk how we hear, because language was originally more this a research in India about how some of the most ancient human languages were actually mimicking Birdsong. Oh, wow. Interesting. I thought that was very interesting when I heard that. That [01:29:00] is

[01:29:00] Ashley: cool. I think, and you know what, I've read that before because I forget where I was talking about this.

[01:29:05] Maybe on a different episode. Oh, we were talking about this on a different episode about singing, and one of the theories about singing was that humans started singing because they heard like it could be birds or different animals making noises, and then they started trying to mimic those.

[01:29:21] Noises and ended up being like, oh, this is actually fun. They started making songs out of it. That was one of the, one of the theories about music. So I thought that was really cool.

[01:29:31] Ben: That's really neat. It's the connections. It all comes back to relationship, right? Yes. What you just said.

[01:29:36] Then it reminds me of how, like Australian, I love Australian aboriginal culture. I think it's amazing. And of course it goes back like 40, 50,000 years, right? Yes. So there's a lot of studies about how the oral storytelling of and spiritual traditions of of those peoples.

[01:29:52] How when you look at the rituals, a lot of them are rituals around mimicking the movements of animals. Now, what that does is, [01:30:00] first of all, it teaches children in and hunters in vow spaces to watch very carefully the movement of animals in order to anticipate a move. So when an animal does a certain movement, you know that it's about to bolt.

[01:30:14] Yes, that shows up in their religious ritual in honoring their ancestors and ancestors, spirits, who are the ancestors of those animals. And so it fulfills various different cultural means. And because it's ritualized, it's going to be perpetuated from. Down the culture because it's an important, not only spiritual, but also temporal.

[01:30:38] It has meaning in different, various, different ways, right? And so when Ethnologists, I think Western science is really catching up to what indigenous people really know. Yeah, looked at that. They could tell, like some of those stories recount events that if you look 5,000 years, there was a flood in a particular area of Australia.

[01:30:57] The stories that are told in [01:31:00] sacred ritual in those areas retell that tale, right? So that, that oral history becomes literally a dynamic document. And so it's very, there's so many pieces that I think that we've lost in our literate culture, right? Yes. Oh my God, I to talk about it all day. Oh

[01:31:20] Ashley: yeah, I know.

[01:31:21] And it just like, and again, I'm not gonna go on forever either, but there's I watched this movie it was called the Nightingale. I believe. Yes. And it was like very violent. So don't watch the movie if you don't wanna see a lot of violence. But the movie itself is very good.

[01:31:35] There's a part where the I think they're in Tasmania in that movie. That's where they're, this, the setting is, and the indigenous person there, the guy, he does his whole ritual cuz he's ends up being the last of his like clan. And he does this ritual that he was like saying, I like literally was crying during it because he was like, I was, my grandfather was supposed to do this with me.

[01:31:58] But now everybody's dead so [01:32:00] I have to do it to keep going. And there's a lot of, he makes a lot of different animal sounds, but it's like a very, just even watching it, I know it's a movie, but you like, feel it. You're like, damn this guy doing this for his whole lineage. Cuz everybody was dead.

[01:32:13] Except him. Ab absolutely. Yeah. And it was like, it was really powerful. It's a really good movie. There is also, go ahead,

[01:32:21] Ben: sorry. That I think really speaks to then what part of this work is. Because ancestor work for me is both it is both immediate, but it is also timeless.

[01:32:31] That's how I like to put it. So when I'm engaging with my ancestors and I'm engaging in those rituals, what we are doing is we're entering into a shared space. That's what spiritual sacred ritual is for me. It's a shared space really in, in many ways, like I make this speech point. In the book, everything's about relationship.

[01:32:53] Everything's about communication too. And so when we are engaging in cultural ritual we're not [01:33:00] just doing things without purpose. We're engaging in communication with the other side. We're doing ritual. We're performing a ritual, we're performing a role in the same way that we're, we would speak yeah.

[01:33:14] When we create altars altars are not just for us, they're also for the ancestors. When I construct my various altars All of the elements on there, communicate something to the other side, whether it be this is a safe space for you to be, this is a space for you to be, this is this is connecting with the cosmology so that you know that this is a space that you can only be, you can't be in my bedroom.

[01:33:35] You can't be in the mirror, in the hallway. Yeah. To be there, right? Yeah. So ritual for me is about communication in this and encountering. And so in like story you said before, when people get into listening story, they enter into a story. Ritual is the same thing. We enter into ritual.

[01:33:52] Yes. We enter into tradition. And in those spaces then our ancestors are living there too. And so it's not a mourning [01:34:00] anymore. It's not a grief because I know that my ancestors are at my shrine. I can go to my shrine and sit there and connect with them. And yes, they're not here physically with me, but they're there.

[01:34:10] It's very much spiritually and we both engage in that ritual, right? Yeah. That's what I love about him. Yes.

[01:34:17] Ashley: Oh my God, it's so great.

[01:34:22] Ben: It seems like it clicked something for you though. Say that again? I said that seemed like it clicked something for you though. Oh,

[01:34:29] Ashley: 100. No, it was just like, I don't know. First of all, I just get like whenever I feel like I get tingles all over my body, so just now I just like, I dunno.

[01:34:39] I feel like that, I feel like that was on my ancestry. Me like, yes, this guy is amazing. This guy is right.

[01:34:49] Oh my gosh, this has been so fun. Such a great conversation. I

[01:34:53] Ben: really enjoyed myself. Thank you for having me on.

[01:34:55] Ashley: Yeah, thank you. So before we go, of course, Ben, [01:35:00] tell us anything you wanna plug or tell us about your book and when it's coming out, cuz this is gonna come out right? What day is your book coming out?

[01:35:08] Ben: So in the US it's coming out on September 8th. Hey, this

[01:35:12] Ashley: is coming out, this is coming out September 7th. So everybody order.

[01:35:16] Ben: Perfect. Okay. Yes. We're, it's middle of July right now, so it's a few months until this comes out, but those who are listening in September, yes. My book comes out on Friday.

[01:35:25] My, my book is called Ancestral Whispers, A Guide to Building Ancestral Veneration Practices. A lot of it is, Very personal for me. I use the experiences that I have had with my very spiritual traditions. I come from a non-prescriptive point of view though, so this is not a book that is going to give you a ritual to do.

[01:35:44] It is not gonna tell you how to build an ancestor shrine. It is not going to tell you how to worship of nh your ancestors. What I do with this, it's in two parts basically. The first is about worldview. Worldview is really important to me. Everything that I do in my [01:36:00] spiritual life comes outta my worldview.

[01:36:02] And so a lot of the first four, four chapters is about is about understanding your own beliefs. How do you see the ancestors? How do you see the world of spirit? How do you see the world and your relationship with it? The second part is then going chapter by chapter through various elements of a living ritual practice.

[01:36:22] So it could be anything. I'll just take you through the list here and and I apologize if you're here, bang, you're hearing banging. It's my cat who's desperately trying to get out the room.

[01:36:30] Ashley: That's so fun that we love our, we love animal friends on this podcast, always totally fine. She's

[01:36:36] Ben: amazing.

[01:36:37] She's been along with a journey with me and now now she's desperately wanting you out. Anyways, let's go through the contents. So the first part is called The Living in the Dead. If you, if anybody who's listening to this once, they can go to v Lou Ellen website and look up the book Ancestral Whispers by Ben Stimson.

[01:36:53] Okay. And they can read the first chapter for free and they can see what the so that, that gives you a taste of what the book is about. [01:37:00] Talked, we put that in your show notes too. Oh, perfect. Thank you. I'll send you the link for it. So the first section is, about how do you define ancestor veneration?

[01:37:07] What is the connection between ven veneration and personal story? What is the connection between the community and personal ancestor veneration? What is the nature of a living? What is the nature of a dead? Understanding those beliefs and understanding how you even conceive who is dead and what makes them dead, and why are they dead and where are they?

[01:37:25] That kinda thing. In the second part, we talk about when forming a living practice. So I'm ju just basically give you a here. So the first chapter in that is just understanding what is an actual living practice. What is it, what does it look like? What does it impact in your life? What is the zones?

[01:37:39] How does it connect with your mundane life and so on. When we talk about the physicality creating shrines, how do you vette even come into your life? How do they come into your living space? What are the potential dangers of them being near the kitchen, for example, where you consuming living food, all of these different things.

[01:37:57] And if your readers are coming from any [01:38:00] kind of a t r or traditional background, I think a lot of them will already know. But if for those, this book is really for people who are divorced from, or are looking to build from scratch a tradition. Oh, I love that. So we're looking at then, what is like the use of color, what is physical representations?

[01:38:16] Cuz some traditions use physical of ancestors, some of them have prohibitions against. So exploring that for yourself. Talking about offerings, the use of of ritual, how to communicate, whether it be through divination. We talked about divination before. How do you create a prayer for for ancestors?

[01:38:35] How do you pray to other spirits on behalf of ancestors, so on and so forth. And then at the end, I talk about pilgrimage because it isn't just about sitting in your house and communic at your ancestor shrine. A lot of people who are looking to connect with their ancestral story tend to want to go to those places.

[01:38:54] We've talked about what home is for us, for you. It's Ghana. It's it's England, [01:39:00] it's a New Jersey. It's Jamaica. All of those places are home for me. It's Canada and the United Kingdom, right? Yeah. And so What is actually going to the spaces that your ancestors dwelled in, even if you don't know who your ancestors were particularly, you know that they at least were in the space at one point.

[01:39:17] Yes. So what can you gain from going on pilgrimage to those places, and then of course conceptualizing what is pilgrimage versus just, going on quet, right? Yeah. Yeah, so it's coming out in September 8th. I do have an online book launch, so if people want to follow that and join us, I do have a Facebook page and social media.

[01:39:36] It actually really helps offers if you go and like the page. So anyone who's listening to us, please feel free to go and and follow my page. I'll be putting more stuff up there. And obviously also some of the other work that I do around ancestor work. The re there's a lot of resources I've included in the back of this book too so that you can this is really just a jumping off point.

[01:39:56] And I don't hold your hand in this. I'm not going to show [01:40:00] you every single thing. I'm, I ask a lot more questions in this than get you to do exercises. In the next book that I'm working on, which I've just submitted a proposal for we are then moving from ancestors to the landscape around you and the spirits that exist there.

[01:40:14] In Kumi we have a a saying which is ancestors below spirits, Isha around, and God above. So it's really then, How does ancestor work? Because ancestor work can be a particular practice. What it shouldn't ever be is a lip service though. Yeah. And unfortunately, I'm seen it a lot in Pagan community.

[01:40:32] In Neopagan community. Yeah. Is that, we we in, we start the ritual, let's honor the ancestors for a minute and 25 seconds. Okay, let's go. And, it's invite the ancestors into your life. Figure out what a relationship, a living relationship with your ancestors could look like for you.

[01:40:52] Allow it to organically grow. I talk about cultural appropriation in this. I talk about I talk about that connection point [01:41:00] between being inspired, but also then what would make sense to your ancestors. If you really love Coco. As a movie and you're really inspired by it, and you build in a friender to your ancestors who have no idea what Mexican culture is and no idea what those symbols are, then they'll be as confused.

[01:41:17] Even though you are sitting there communing with your ancestors, they'll be confused as fuck. So it like Yeah.

[01:41:22] Ashley: They'll be like, what? Have

[01:41:25] Ben: old,

[01:41:26] Ashley: Exactly. Like we're Swedish. Yeah, exactly.

[01:41:30] Ben: So then I talk about blending different things. If you come from multicultural background like we do what is it like to then intentionally bring different elements in, like REO or if finding that right recipe of Jfa rice, right? Yes. Bringing that in and then serving that to ancestors who are English, who've never even had jfa rice before. Yeah. What, what could that relationship and part of that relationship then could be introducing your ancestors to each other.

[01:41:57] Bridging those connections, right? Yeah. So that's what the [01:42:00] book is all about. I hope that it's gonna look like really work for people, but it's a jumping off point. I really put you in the like I do with therapy. It's a long therapy book basically. That's what it's,

[01:42:11] Ashley: which everybody's gonna love because we all need it.

[01:42:14] I know. So we're fine. Oh my gosh. So everybody, all of those links are gonna be in the show notes. Ben's page and everything about his book will be there. But. I just wanna thank you again so much. This has been Thank you. This such a great conversation. I, oh gosh. You're just amazing. You're this's fine.

[01:42:34] I I

[01:42:34] Ben: was looking forward to, it's like I said to you in private. I had come across your podcast before when I was starting to put the publicity work in. I was looking at what some of my fellow offers like some of the venues and podcasts. And so when you popped up on that on that group that we're part of, I was like, oh yeah, I know who this is.

[01:42:51] Ashley: I know when you were, oh, sorry. Sorry. No,

[01:42:54] Ben: I, cuz I think I actually saw, cause I'm having Madam Pita come onto my own podcast at some point. So I saw that you'd [01:43:00] had her on a few months ago and and it was such a a great interview too. I highly recommend people go and listen to that one too.

[01:43:07] Oh

[01:43:07] Ashley: yeah. Madam PTAs, so she's awesome too. Yes. I saw you had written like all these different things that you do about your, your degrees and your minors and I was like, oh my gosh this person and me may be combat friends. I was Facebook friends, so I was like, oh my gosh, you're so interesting.

[01:43:28] Yeah. But thank you again. This is been and cheer. So great. So everybody visit the links. So I'll be in the show notes. And again, this is Dying With the Divine. You can follow us on the socials, Instagram, Facebook, you can give us a good rating. If you like the show, you can email me at Dying with the Divine Pod.

[01:43:47] And if you wanna follow me, Ashley, I'm at Sankofa hs. That's s A N K O F A H s and Sankofa Healing Sanctuary on Facebook. This has been great. Thank you Ben and [01:44:00] everybody. I hope you have a fantastic week. Go order the book right now because you're gonna wanna read all about this stuff. It's gonna be so awesome.

[01:44:06] And I'll see you all next week. Bye.