Espiritismo, a Practice for the People with Kaitlyn Graña

Kaitlyn

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[00:00:00] Ashley: Hi everybody and welcome to Dine with the Divine. I'm your host Ashley and together we'll be exploring the magical, the mystical, and everything in between. So in today's episode, we'll be talking about Espiritismo and Maria Lionza. So today we have a fantastic guest.

[00:00:24] We have Caitlin, who is the mother of mystics and also a co host on Third Eye Bind. They are a transcendent teacher who transforms modern mystics into authentic, ancestrally aligned spiritual practitioners, empowering them to uncover and share their unique gifts of the spirit with the world.

[00:00:45] To work with Caitlin is to open yourself to living in communion with your spiritual court. Your court is a collective of spirits who support you. Through communing with the good spirits, we witness our lives as miracles. Through communing with the good spirits, we discover [00:01:00] our radical authenticity, our ancestry, and our personal power to change our lives and to change the world.

[00:01:06] Kaitlyn, how are you today? I'm

[00:01:08] Kaitlyn: well. How are you, Ashley?

[00:01:10] Ashley: I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I always ask people, like, how, what's your story? Tell me your story, friend.

[00:01:21] How did we get here?

[00:01:24] Kaitlyn: How did we get here? Where to begin? I am really blessed to have been born into an ancestral spiritual tradition, Espiritismo. So it's something that I grew up with in addition to Going to church on Sundays and being good parishioners. And so I grew up with this dichotomy of having this really beautiful tradition that we had to keep secret and going to Catholic school five days a week and church every Sunday where [00:02:00] things were a little bit different.

[00:02:01] Similar, but very different. Lots of the same pictures, same spirits, but it's a different vibe. So I really am extremely grateful that this is something that I was able to root into from literally birth. Some of my earliest memories are going to MESAS at, Our old madrina's house. We actually used to go to this, chapel.

[00:02:25] It's a garage, but it was turned into a chapel in Monterey, and there would be big, cook, they would cook lechon, the big pig, and there would be food, and there would be espiritistas all in white channeling, and it was just really magical. It was really magical. And, I never, I was always like, mystically inclined, but I didn't think it was anything Weird, because

[00:02:52] Ashley: It was

[00:02:52] Kaitlyn: pretty normal at home like we all talk about spirits and the dead all the time Which is also not uncommon in Catholicism like we love [00:03:00] talking about dead, the dead all the time anyway, and it wasn't until I think I was 17 when I bought my first tarot deck at the Bodhi Tree on Melrose, RIP.

[00:03:12] Best store ever. Now it's an Earth Cafe.

[00:03:17] And I started giving readings to, friends and, my boyfriend at the time. And they were like, It was really good and I dabbled in a bit of chaotic magic back then, which was not, it was not good. It worked, but that wasn't necessarily for the better, greater good of

[00:03:36] Ashley: humankind. I've been there.

[00:03:39] Kaitlyn: We learn from our mistakes. And then I disconnected from spirituality just in general as. I got a little bit older and I was working all of the time and it wasn't until my dad was diagnosed with what we thought was Parkinson's but it ended up being something [00:04:00] called multiple systems atrophy, which is a neurological disorder where your body just shuts down around your brain.

[00:04:08] But it was him becoming sick that made me want to reconnect with spirituality. Again, and I picked up my cards again, and I started giving readings to people. I worked in apparel for, like, over a decade, and so I was giving readings to other to other sales reps on the floor. I was giving readings via text message in between appointments or whenever my boss was gone.

[00:04:32] And I didn't really think anything of it other than it made me happy, and my job didn't. And one day I was talking to my madrina, and she was like why can't this be your job? And I was like, I didn't... Didn't even think about it. I didn't know that was an option. And I... Left. I left. I was ejected from the apparel industry one last time in [00:05:00] May of 2018 and have been doing spiritual work full time ever since then.

[00:05:06] Wow. A long story. No,

[00:05:09] Ashley: no, it's perfect. And every story is perfect. And your story is also perfect. I felt so there's so many. So from talking to different people, especially like on this podcast, everybody has this lull in their, spiritual path around their, late teens, early 20s

[00:05:25] I feel like that's when you're like, I'm supposed to be an adult now. Yeah. I have to put away all these childhood... Like, a proto.

[00:05:36] Kaitlyn: For me though, it was, like, honestly, I was unhinged. It was like a deep spiral into, alcoholism and addiction, which is pretty easy to come by when, you have trauma growing up, and then you, live through it.

[00:05:52] You grew up in Los Angeles where everything's so accessible. Yeah. I was like, I don't see anything except what I am [00:06:00] snorting up my nose because that's all I can focus on. And, spirituality is gonna make me feel bad about that.

[00:06:06] Ashley: Yeah, oh my, it's so true. I so understand. I got into a place where I was just like, Okay, I think I'm supposed to grow up.

[00:06:14] And then I was I guess I'm going to college. I guess I have to drink all the time. And I was just, I was actually, like, depressed. But I couldn't figure that out. Yes. Yeah, I was like I don't really drink, but I'm drinking all the time and I'm completely miserable and I can sit in one place for hours and just.

[00:06:30] Not think and, like, want to die. This is bad.

[00:06:35] Kaitlyn: This is normal, right? This is normal. This might be what adulting is.

[00:06:38] Ashley: Exactly. And, okay, Small, I don't, I'm gonna laugh about this right now because I'm coming from a healed place. Yes. But short trigger warning about harm. But, I used to think, and I literally said this when I started my spiritual path, I was like, Does everybody not, think about, Ending their own life every day.

[00:06:55] Girl, yes. Yeah, I used to think about it so often that I just assumed everyone [00:07:00] did. And my teacher at the time was like, Nope nope, that's not normal. I was like, I was like that's news to me. I had

[00:07:06] Kaitlyn: no idea. I

[00:07:07] Ashley: know, I was like, wait, every time you get stressed out, you don't just think about ending it?

[00:07:11] And she's like, nope. No.

[00:07:13] Kaitlyn: Yes. And we have to laugh about it now to keep it

[00:07:17] Ashley: in time. I know, it's like now, I, like I said, I'm coming from a place of healing. If you feel that way, please reach out to who you can. But I'm coming from a place of healing now. But like, yeah, I used to really feel like that.

[00:07:29] And I was very, seeing like you, I was very far away from my spiritual path, First of all, like nobody else was like into this. So I was like, I guess this is silly, right? Like I, maybe I'm the stupid one. So I just got, but once I got back into it and then I got the truth, Hey, guess what?

[00:07:48] You are perpetual. victim in your own story. I was like, Wait a minute! Wait. No! I was like, not all of it, [00:08:00] but some of it, girl. I'm like, oh! I'm like, damn, you guys really told me. I was like, oh my god. But, yeah, it's so funny how you realize later. You're like, oh, I walked away from that because I also realized that Again, like you said, trauma and all these other things, when they come up and it's how we talked about this before, but we talk, it's never not worth talking about.

[00:08:22] When you want to start healing yourself, it, it takes a lot of going and confronting all that dark shit in your life. And that sucks. Nobody likes doing that. It sucks.

[00:08:34] Kaitlyn: Accountability? Uncomfy.

[00:08:37] Ashley: It's so bad. And I always try to explain to people, it's not like, When I say, like, when you said accountability and when we say that, it's not about saying that it's your fault that this happened to you.

[00:08:50] That's not what it means. No. It means that you are, in a way you continue to perpetuate your traumas when you don't find a way to handle them. [00:09:00] Whether that's getting professional help, whether that's finding, solace in, a lot of people find solace in nature, or whatever it is that will work for you, you have to reach out.

[00:09:09] And when you reach out, you're going to get slapped in the face with some truth. And that hurts. Yeah, we understand that it's hard. Nobody say it's not hard, but when you get out of it, you're like damn that was crazy You're like wow, I was so miserable and I didn't realize how miserable I was.

[00:09:26] Kaitlyn: Literally, yeah, miserable.

[00:09:30] It's fine. Everything's

[00:09:31] Ashley: fine. I was like, no, I'm just really fun. Like that's the thing. I'm so fun. You're the most fun.

[00:09:37] Kaitlyn: I am the most fun. Yes! And then all of a sudden, all of your fun friends just disappear. Gone.

[00:09:45] Ashley: They're like, oh, you don't want to do that anymore? And you're like, actually, I really don't feel the need to.

[00:09:51] Screw you, and then you're like, no! You don't want

[00:09:53] Kaitlyn: to be a part of our collection of hurt enablers, who just, all hurt, we're all hurt.

[00:09:58] Ashley: I know! And, yeah, [00:10:00] exactly! And you also realize that those people, you have to love them from afar, it's okay. Absolutely. Yeah, I know a lot of people who I feel I've let go in my life, and I know they have their own healing, I can't help them with that journey, unfortunately, I can be, I can say, Girl, friend, fam, when you need me, call me.

[00:10:21] But like, I can't make, I can't help you get there. I can give you some change for the trip, but you gotta go on it yourself. And it sucks, cause especially when there's people you know, people you really care about, and you're like but we all are on our own journey, and they'll figure it out, and it's okay, it's good to be a loyal friend, but don't be loyal to your own detriment. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, rant.

[00:10:45] Kaitlyn: An important PSA. Exactly!

[00:10:50] Ashley: Get your healing, guys. Get your healing. Wherever you find it.

[00:10:56] Kaitlyn: It's great, I swear. I [00:11:00] know!

[00:11:01] Ashley: I remember when I first started, doing my shamanic apprenticeship.

[00:11:05] Man, there was a point, we were in it and I was like, yeah, this is cool, I'm talking to the spirits, everything's fine, and my, my teacher at the time was like, it's gonna get rough, I was like, rough, this is great, I'm doing all this meditating, I feel so inclined, right, and then, like, one day, I remember, she's like, I want you to, like, do X, Y, and Z, I want you to do this journey, blah, blah, blah, and I did it, and all my guys were just telling me truths that I didn't really want to hear, and I was crying, And I was like, I don't want to do this anymore.

[00:11:34] I was like This is awful. I

[00:11:44] thought this to me about myself and things I need to change and this is so hard. Yeah, I had to take a break because I was like not okay for a while but

[00:11:53] Kaitlyn: Yeah. Yeah. And it's okay to take breaks. Sometimes that's the only way to get through it. I think a lot of the time it's the only way to [00:12:00] get through it, is to take a step back.

[00:12:02] Ashley: You need time to, process your... Oh, yeah. your shit, like... Your shit. Yeah. And I had some shit.

[00:12:13] I know, you're like... Damn! There's so many things I learned this about myself. I learned that I was such a martyr in my life, I really was throwing myself on the cross for everything and then complaining about it. I'd be up there with the nails in my hand and be like, This is terrible!

[00:12:29] Everyone's so mean to

[00:12:30] Kaitlyn: me! Hammer. I'm

[00:12:33] Ashley: like, why are you guys like And it's no, just don't do it anymore, girl. And I'm like, oh. And I was like, I can just let go? Okay, that's crazy.

[00:12:44] Kaitlyn: But are you sure?

[00:12:44] Ashley: I know, are you And then you have to find Sorry, this is our Me and Katelyn are having a therapy session together right now.

[00:12:52] Neither of us being therapists, but yeah,

[00:12:57] Just keep on keeping on everybody. You're all right.[00:13:00] It's crazy. Okay. Let's see what else we're going to talk about. If my thought comes back to me, I'll come back later. Okay, so we're gonna go. Oh, no. I wanted to ask you something else. I just, so can you tell us what do you find the most exciting thing for you as being like a spiritual teacher?

[00:13:23] Like what do you love seeing in your clients and your students the most?

[00:13:27] Kaitlyn: So many things. Where do I start? I think one of my favorite things is that moment when my clients realize that cultivating spiritual discipline and It doesn't need to be something that is oppressive. It's not something that is one size fits all.

[00:13:52] It's not dogmatic. But instead, cultivating spiritual discipline is really creating a support [00:14:00] system for yourself. And that support system can be fluid with you. What you need today isn't going to be the same thing that you need three weeks from now or three years from now. And your good spirits and the routines and disciplines that you create with them get to change with you.

[00:14:20] Instead of... being forced upon you, like, a lot of folks who come from, I work with a lot of people who come from Catholicism and other sects of Christianity, like, we're used to, these are the rules. And if you don't do these rules, you're straight to hell. Exactly. One way. One way ticket. One way ticket.

[00:14:39] Do not pass go. Do not collect 200. And it's this moment of, first surprise, and then like, oh. Oh, and I also like that moment when people realize that spiritual disciplines don't have to start huge, maybe won't even turn into big, [00:15:00] huge ceremonial things. It can be waking up with enough time to make yourself a cup of coffee or a cup of tea in the morning and to take a few deep breaths instead of feeling like you're rushing out the door.

[00:15:12] It can be... Taking extra time in the shower, touching your hair on wash days. It can be taking extra time to moisturize your skin after you get out of the shower, instead of rushing through it. All these little things, making sure that you eat, turning off your phone while you're eating eatings that make you feel happy and full when you're hungry, instead of, like, I don't know, we all have complicated relationships with food, but eating when you're hungry is it is.

[00:15:40] It really is. Drinking enough water. These are all ways that we care for our first altar, and usually the ways our spirits first invite us to begin having relationships with them. And I think folks sometimes sit down at my table and they're like, I want to talk to [00:16:00] spirits. What do I do? What crystals do I need?

[00:16:02] What cards do I need? How do I do all these things? Can you give me some techniques? And I'm like you need to eat. You're hungry. Your students are telling me you're hungry. I want you to eat something. I want you to drink more water. This is where we're starting. Sleep with your phone away from your bed.

[00:16:21] This is a spiritual discipline. Little things to help our brains and our bodies feel okay. So that we can start doing all the other stuff. And I think that's really cool that our spirits, often times, okay, they'll either come to me and they're like, I want guns a blazin tarot cards, crystals, pendulums, what do I do?

[00:16:41] Or they're like, how can I serve my spirits better? What do they need? What do they need from me? And so many folks, especially... Femmes, women, people of color are used to having to feel like we're only valid if we can be of service to others. [00:17:00] And our good spirits are like, no, what can we do for you? How can we help you?

[00:17:09] The gifts for us, that will come, don't worry, we'll ask you when it's time. But most of the offerings the spirits want, all of the time, is like, making sure we're caring for ourselves. Making sure we're making time for pleasure for ourselves, and play, and joy, that's what they're interested in, and there's just...

[00:17:33] The joy that my clients experience, the relief that they experience, the excitement they experience when they realize this stuff, is like so delicious to me! It's so delicious to me. No, they just want you to feel great.

[00:17:48] Ashley: Yeah! I love that. Me too. I get emotional.

[00:17:58] It's perfect. [00:18:00]

[00:18:00] Kaitlyn: I will probably cry today.

[00:18:02] Ashley: That's totally fine. We love crying. It's a great release. That's so wonderful. And you know what? I haven't actually read the book. I have tons of books I haven't read, but I have. It's actually by a friar. And this guy, that my friend, she loves this guy, and he's very, he's a very liberal Catholic, believe it or not, everybody, and he's pretty cool, actually.

[00:18:28] I went to see him speak with her. Folk Catholics are pretty cool. Yeah, he's pretty cool. Yeah, so he actually wrote a book between, it's called Between Heaven and Mirth, and I saw him talking about it on an interview, and he talks about the fact that, He read that down. Yeah, it's insane. I didn't read the book yet, but I got it from my friend.

[00:18:43] But he talks about, Believe it or not, everybody they're like religion and God wants you to be happy. So you should just smile. It's like it's not supposed to be like you were talking about earlier. Oppressive and like full of anger and hellfire. No, this is all [00:19:00] supposed to be freeing, yeah, you're actually supposed to feel great and free. And your connection with your spirits that you're talking about. It's supposed to be something that you love having, that you're like, wow, this is great. It's supposed to be like, I always say going home. Because they know you from the womb. They know you from before and they'll know you forever.

[00:19:20] So like, when you go to them, it's like going home. It's like going to see your aunties, your uncles, your elders. Because they're the ones who know. You go for them for advice, you go. And another thing everybody, if you have an altar. I don't know. Somebody was like, oh, I've met people like you don't go to your altar when you are like you have to be completely Like composed and like everything has to be fine.

[00:19:44] I go to my altar when I'm a max Like, cause I'm like, I don't know who else to talk to about this. I'm like, I'm a mess.

[00:19:54] Kaitlyn: Yes. Yes. That's, okay, that's another really, I think, liberating thing when it comes up in client [00:20:00] sessions. You're allowed to be angry with your spirits. You're allowed to be upset, you're allowed to be confused, and you're allowed to tell them.

[00:20:07] They're not your parents. And some of us are blessed with really great parents, but even the best parents... have their stuff and, like your spirits aren't going to treat you like you owe them anything. Like you should be more grateful. No, unless you're really out of line.

[00:20:27] Unless you're really so far out of line that they're like, what are you talking about? Even still, you can come to them upset and they'll give you the grace that you need. And I fucking love that. I know. I love that. It's just, it's a

[00:20:41] Ashley: relationship that we're, like you said, unless you're really out of line, you really can't go wrong with them.

[00:20:46] You just be like, listen, this happened to me, and I felt like you guys should have helped me avoid this. Yeah! I didn't know this shit was gonna happen! And sometimes they're like, friend? Listen. You don't [00:21:00] realize it now, but you need to go through it. You're like, really? And they're like, yes, you'll figure it out in six months.

[00:21:04] So you're like, six months? They're like, yep. And then that's... Yeah, and then it's We're not gonna talk to you anymore today. And you're like, What?! And I'm like, What? What?

[00:21:14] Kaitlyn: Jeez. Or they're like, you're like, you didn't tell me. And they're like, oh, but we did.

[00:21:22] Ashley: They're like, remember the 18 signs I showed you?

[00:21:25] That was me telling you, silly girl. And I'm like, damn, you're right.

[00:21:35] You guys are really right. I really did. Fair enough. Fair enough. I really did. Everything to avoid what you were trying to tell me. Wow, okay, this really is my fault. It's okay. I'm learning. And they're like, they always embrace you. No matter how many mistakes you make, they're like, come here. Yes. Come here.

[00:21:53] Yes,

[00:21:54] Kaitlyn: even if you are out of line, they're like, okay, now that we've told you, [00:22:00] come get a hug.

[00:22:02] Ashley: I still love you. We still love you. Yeah, it's like when you really like, you really fuck up, like when you were a kid, and you're like, damn, my parents are really gonna hate me now, and they'll like yell at you, but afterwards they're like, listen, I still love you.

[00:22:18] You really should have done what you did, because that was bad, but I don't hate you, you're my kid, but , ugh, don't do that shit again. Please don't do that. Yeah, Please, that was bad, but I love you and yeah. Oh, boy.

[00:22:31] Kaitlyn: And that relationship with my spirits has really helped me, I think, to be a better parent to two little kids.

[00:22:40] It's the other night, my kiddo... Popped out of their room, it was after bedtime, and they're like, I just need to put something in my backpack, and I was like, okay. And then they ran away, back to their bed, and I was like, whatever, hundreds of Gemini, they've always got stuff in their pockets, it could be anything.

[00:22:55] And then they came back out, and they were like, mommy, I need to tell you something. I was like, okay, sit [00:23:00] down. And they were like, the thing I put in my backpack? I was like, yeah, and they were like, okay, there was this really cool toy at school, and it belongs to the classroom. And it was really neat and I wanted to take it home to show Lola, but I didn't ask and I brought it home and that's when I put in my backpack and I was like , you can't do that.

[00:23:19] we can't do that. And they're like, are you upset? I was like, I'm not mad at you. , but we are going to go tomorrow and give it back to the teacher. You gotta Tell the teacher, I know it's not going to be fun, I will play with you, I will hold your hand, we'll do it outside so none of the other kids see, but you've got to tell at least the teacher the truth and give it back.

[00:23:37] And they were like, okay mom. And I was like, I just want you to always know that like no matter how badly you think you fucked up, to come to me.

[00:23:46] Ashley: Yeah, exactly!

[00:23:48] Kaitlyn: And this like silly little thing. And the teacher was just like, Oh, thanks for bringing it back. Like, that was it, which is fine. But I realized in that moment, if I get angry, [00:24:00] then that sets the precedent forever.

[00:24:03] And if they really need me, there's really an emergency. They're not going to think they can come to me. And... My parents were good parents, but that was definitely a place where we, had a disconnect. I was like, oh, I can't tell my parents anything, cause it's gonna be worse trouble. And I really owe so much of who I am as a parent to my relationship with my spirits.

[00:24:26] Otherwise, I'd only know what I knew, from my upbringing and my parents and grandparents. That's something I'm really grateful

[00:24:33] Ashley: for. That small moment, your child's doing something like that, which like, yes, in the grand scope of things, it's like innocuous, right? It's not that big of a deal.

[00:24:44] But you instilled so much trust in them, they're like, damn, cause it does suck that they had to go tell the teacher, that sucks, you don't want to tell the teacher. You were like, I will literally be with you every moment [00:25:00] of the way, but I just want you to learn. We have to learn this lesson.

[00:25:03] We have to learn this lesson. That is such a beautiful moment for them. And I'm sure when they grow up, they're going to just remember that. There's going to be something they probably remember. Damn. Damn. I hope so.

[00:25:14] Kaitlyn: Yeah, I know! Nobody ever taught me how to be accountable for my actions, my parents, when we got into disagreements, they would just we would all fight, and then they'd leave the room. And then somebody would come back later and ask me if I was hungry. Yeah. And that was it.

[00:25:29] Ashley: And that's like their way of apologizing. You're like, oh, I guess everything's okay now. You I know.

[00:25:36] You're like, okay.

[00:25:39] Kaitlyn: So I certainly didn't know how to be accountable for things that I did wrong as I got older. So I was just like. I'm just gonna light fires everywhere and then be like, pop And

[00:25:55] that was the other thing I knew in that moment. I was like, oh shit, this little thing, like, [00:26:00] they have to say it themselves. They have to, even if it's uncomfy, I will be with them. But they have to be accountable themselves. Cause I try to be accountable to them. All the time. All the time.

[00:26:12] Ashley: Oh, and children will keep you accountable.

[00:26:15] Certainly. My friends kids, they'll be like, that's not what you said. I'm like, damn, that isn't what I said. I'm sorry. That's my bad, that's my bad. I said I would get you ice cream this time. Okay, I'll get it, I promise. You were right. You were right. You cannot lie to them, kids. Okay. Gosh, this is amazing.

[00:26:37] We're gonna go to our next section. We're gonna do our dish of the week. And I know you grew up in California. I certainly did. Okay, awesome. And I know you said you like just, you like a good plate of rice and beans. Yes. Right? Honestly, who doesn't? I'm a fan of any type of rice and beans. I have a new rice and bean unlocked the other day.

[00:26:59] Not the other [00:27:00] day, actually, a couple months ago. Yeah. I had a Peruvian coworker yeah, and she made Peruvian version of rice and beans. Damn, they're so good. It's so good! I was like, ooh, I could eat this every single day of my life. The olives and... Oh, it was delicious.

[00:27:20] Kaitlyn: Ah, I love olives. Olives are a very polarizing food item.

[00:27:25] People either very much love them or very much hate them. And you don't see them as much. My mom's Mexican and Italian. So you don't really see them in Mexican food, but you see them a lot in Cuban food, where my dad is from. I'm like team olive. Olive in my rice. Olive in my beans. Olive in my arroz con pollo.

[00:27:41] Like, I love. I love it.

[00:27:44] Ashley: I know. I am also a fan of olives. This now, I'm sorry everybody, this just says Spanish rice and beans. It doesn't specify the country and I don't know if they mean Spain. So this is a very rice, general rice and bean recipe, but as you can see [00:28:00] Depending on the country or culture the person is from, it can be different, and the ingredients can be different.

[00:28:06] I know this is very general. I apologize, everybody, but this is the one I found. And it had, you know what, honestly, I saw the picture with olives, and the

[00:28:16] one. I know, one has olives in it, so I'm gonna pick it. There's a recipe will be in the show notes. It looks really nice. I'll tell you some of, at least tell you what they put in this. They put, they use olive oil, smoked or sweet paprika, basmati rice, some people, I don't know. Basmati rice, I've never heard people use it, but for rice and beans, but hey, why not?

[00:28:40] I like basmati rice. Fire roasted tomatoes, cumin, red pepper flakes, kidney beans, tomato paste, vegetable broth, green bell pepper, salt, garlic, and then you can use olives, you can use cilantro or parsley if you'd like. Depending on, again, cilantro, another polarizing thing. It [00:29:00] is. People hate it or they love it.

[00:29:01] Yeah. But, it's really like you saute some onions and peppers, you add the spices, then you add the rice and beans and tomatoes, boil, simmer it down, and you got rice and beans. It's very delicious, there's lots of beans in it. You may fart, it's all fine. But you'll be full and happy? Exactly! Full and happy.

[00:29:26] And the beans are really good for your heart. We all know the rhyme. It's very good. So we love a good plate of rice and beans. So like I said, in the show notes, you'll see it. So I'll do the part of the show now where I plug myself real quick So if you enjoy the show, you can follow me on the socials I'm dying with the divine on Instagram and on Facebook And if you really like the show, you can give us a rating of five stars preferably or a review Thank you Everybody who's done that on Apple Spotify and you can make sure you're subscribed so you can get our episodes every Thursday And [00:30:00] you can give me a tip if you want.

[00:30:01] You don't have to, but I appreciate it. Do it . Yes. And if you have any suggestions for episodes or questions or comments feel free to email me at Dine with the Divine pod@gmail.com. Okay. Now we're gonna go into our Tea time. Tea time. I'm gonna like write a song for it. Just kidding. I won't, but I'm probably just gonna sing it from now on

[00:30:24] Okay. So earlier, Caitlin talked about Espiritismo. I've been trying to practice. You guys know I'm bad with pronunciations. But I'm trying my best here. Spanish is a little easier. I'm channeling high school Spanish class. Here we go. I've heard of it before, but I didn't really know exactly, what it was.

[00:30:45] I'm gonna read a Wikipedia thing, and then, of course, Caitlin, just let us know whatever's wrong. Because Wikipedia's not always right. I love Wikipedia, because they actually, there have been studies done on, Wikipedia, how it's, really right a [00:31:00] lot of the time, but, when it comes to, spiritual concepts and stuff, it can be a little iffy sometimes yeah.

[00:31:04] Okay. So the phenomena and broad range of beliefs defined as Espiritismo originated with the ideas of Spiritualism defined by this guy named Alan Kardec. He was like a guy from... France. France. That's it. Yeah. Spiritualism would become popular in Latin America and influence existing religions as...

[00:31:24] As well as forming Africanized traditions of expiratissimo itself, and it would become especially prominent in Brazil, Cuba, and Puerto Rico. And then, I have this note, which I thought was interesting. During the Ten Years War in Cuba, much of the population was in panic and grieving for the loss of loved ones.

[00:31:43] A lot of white Cubans were able to alleviate some of their emotional pain by turning to expiratissimo, which allowed them to commune with dead loved ones. White Espiritistas would ask their Congolese slaves to guide them in Espiritismo de Cordon ceremonies. In the early 1800s, [00:32:00] Espiritismo would gain popularity in Puerto Rico because of the populace's rejection of Spanish homogeny and spiritualism's condemnation by the Catholic Church.

[00:32:08] Okay that's your little tidbit right there. In general, Espiritismo has a lot to do with, mediumship, right?

[00:32:17] Kaitlyn: Yes. Mhm. Actually, okay, so there is a little part in there that's incorrect. Okay, tell me. And what it is that Spiritism is actually the belief system that was developed by Alan Kardec.

[00:32:30] And Alan Kardec first coined the term Spiritism and Spiritist in 1880. 1840 when he published the spirits book. Spiritualism is more of an umbrella term. Spiritualism is any religion or philosophy that rejects materialism. And materialism is the belief that things have to be proven in order to be true.

[00:32:53] Right. Okay. And the spiritualist movement. had a lot, that gained popularity in [00:33:00] Europe, had a lot of Christian influence. There's very much, one of the biggest differences between spiritualism and spiritism is spiritualism believes very much in that spirits can only be good or bad and that's it. There's also no reincarnation in Old school spiritualism.

[00:33:19] Whereas in spiritism, Allan Kardec believed in reincarnation and that the point of every reincarnation is that we, our souls, get closer and closer to altruism. Okay. Toward the desire to be good humans, to be good stewards of Earth, to be good caregivers to ourselves and to one another. And that was one of the biggest differences between the two.

[00:33:42] And Spiritism then became popular first with the colonists. Because they were rejecting the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church was on the side of the Spanish and the colonists were like, we want to keep all of our own blood money. We don't want to give any of it to Spain anymore. [00:34:00] And it trickled down from, the elite classes into, it became popular with the lower classes, the enslaved folks, the indigenous folks, and it became this amalgamation of spiritism and African traditions and indigenous traditions.

[00:34:24] It was very popular during the Ten Years War and also during the Cuban Revolution in the 50s and 60s. It was popular way for The soldiers on both sides would have Espiritistas channel the dead soldiers of their enemy to get intel. Huh.

[00:34:45] Ashley: Look at that. Smart. I know.

[00:34:49] Kaitlyn: Okay. Like interesting. I love teaching the history of Hispiritismo.

[00:34:53] It's one of my favorite things. I don't remember what the question was.

[00:34:56] Ashley: No, that's perfect! Okay, no, I'm so happy [00:35:00] because I was reading a lot about it and getting a little confused. So I'm very happy that you're here.

[00:35:06] Kaitlyn: And it gets confusing because Hispiritismo varies so vastly from region to region. And there's, Espiritismo Criolo, there's Espiritismo Kardeco, Espiritismo Kardeca, there's...

[00:35:20] I come from a tradition called Espiritismo Crusao, which is Crossed Spiritism. And it's popular in the region where my dad's family was from. And the reason it's called Crossed Spiritism is because it's a crossing of Catholicism, Spiritism, African practices, and Indigenous practices. And it makes for an incredible...

[00:35:43] I get emotional when I talk about it. It's fine. It makes for a really beautiful practice because so many folks who are of the diaspora, whether you are of African diaspora, you are of Latin American diaspora, we don't have [00:36:00] access to pre colonial traditions and we don't always have access to teachers or elders.

[00:36:07] A lot of us don't know who are. great grandparents are, or even our grandparents are, and Espiritismo is a tradition that connects us with these spirits, with these people, with our people, who we come from, in a way that we are not misappropriating any practices. Yes. It's really magical in that way, because I think so many folks In the U.

[00:36:34] S. and in South America, like all over so many folks who have been harmed by colonialism. Like, we have this feeling of not belonging. And Espiritismo is this threshold that we get to step into to discover exactly where we belong. Yes. And that, it doesn't matter where on earth we are now.

[00:36:59] We [00:37:00] belong there, our spirits asked us to be here, and they are with us, no matter what. And that, is cool.

[00:37:10] Ashley: Yeah! It's cool! Yes! Ah, it's I think it's a big connection to people now, like, How everybody wants to do genealogy right now. It's a big connection to that because, there's a lot of, there's a lot of sayings in every culture.

[00:37:27] You don't know where you're going if you don't know where you've come from. And when you connect to those ancestral ties it can, it changes your life. It really can change your identity. When you find out the stories of... Who your people, and where you come from, you're like, damn, we all come from tons of different kinds of people.

[00:37:49] Some of them doing awesome things, some of them maybe not so awesome things. But when you hear the stories, you're like, wow, these are the people who live so I could live, yes.

[00:37:59] Kaitlyn: [00:38:00] Yeah, okay, and that's one of the other things I love about Espiritismo. It's like we've all got an amalgamation of ancestors on varying degrees of the spectrum of kindness and horror.

[00:38:13] Yeah,

[00:38:14] Ashley: exactly!

[00:38:16] Kaitlyn: And rather than Bypassing our difficult ancestors, Espiritismo gives us the tools to elevate those souls, to elevate those spirits, so that they can work closer to their own journeys with altruism. Because there are two things that are true at the same time, reincarn well, according to Espiritismo, right?

[00:38:42] Reincarnation is real. Mhm. And also, , the spirits of the deceased influence. It's the living. And when we think about just the history of the United States and Latin America, we have some pretty unsavory centuries. Yeah. Up in there.[00:39:00]

[00:39:00] And I think that, New Age spirituality, we want to skip over that and just feel good.

[00:39:07] Yes. But then those ancestors remain influencing us and our choices.

[00:39:15] And when we use the tools that Espiritismo offers us, specifically ancestral elevation, we help those ancestors who didn't make good choices come to a place where like, they want to heal. They want to do better. And we need that for really our collective liberation. We need more spirits. who are aligned with the greater good of humanity.

[00:39:41] And we can't ignore our not so good ancestors or our horrible ancestors if we want things to change. Stuff has to change on the physical and in the spiritual as well. And that's a big part of the work that I focus on is helping [00:40:00] folks. They have to do it themselves. You gotta do it yourself.

[00:40:05] I'm dealing with my own shitty answers. I'm not going to deal with yours, but I will teach you how. Yes!

[00:40:15] Ashley: Oh, yes. So it's, yeah, go to Caitlin if you need to be brought closer to the truth, everybody. Oh,

[00:40:29] I love that go? Okay. Like you said, depending on the culture, the country, it can be very different. So we have some, again, some of the research that I did, I found some different, depending, different traditions of Spiritsismo. The first one I found was This is the scientific Esperitismo, so this is otherwise known as Mesa Blanca, so white table, I think, right?

[00:40:55] Okay, my Spanish is not completely lost on that one. No, you're doing great. Okay, yeah![00:41:00] So this is largely contained, according to my research, this is largely contained in urban areas in Cuba, and this is, these followers are more, they start, they follow more closely to the writings and concept of Mr.

[00:41:16] Kardec. So it's more just about what he wrote about, what he found. Yes. Okay. And this is, it's popular, it said it would be popular in Puerto Rican upper class and eventually evolve into a different type, and we're going to talk about that later, a different type of Espiritismo.

[00:41:32] So during these rituals in the Mesa Blanca, The members are seated around a white linen cover table, and they then attempt to contact spirits in like a seance style. The spirit enters the body of the medium who's present at the table, and the individuals around the table, they are able to ask the spirits questions through the medium.

[00:41:54] So it's a lot like your seance that you saw, that you've probably seen before. Maybe, probably. I [00:42:00] don't like to reference movies when you talk about it, but you know what I'm talking about. Everybody's in a movie and that kind of thing. That's the, seems to be what they're doing in this the scientific one.

[00:42:10] So then we have, and you already mentioned this one, Espiritismo de Cordon. And this is deep, more deeply, derived in ritual. And this one they said is more emotionally, physically and mentally exhausting because It seems like it's saying here, what I read is there's a lot of chanting, there's a lot of trance work, but the trancing is trancing here, guys.

[00:42:33] It's dancing, it's yelling, it's swinging, it's heavy breathing. So it's people getting to these trances to help the spirits come by and tell them what they need to do. And also, it focuses a lot on healing. And trying to help people in that way. There's no specific hierarchy in this.

[00:42:54] There can be somebody who's in charge of the ritual, but they're not like, the priest [00:43:00] or anything like that. They're just the one who's hosting, basically. They usually have a very big altar in this style, and they also use different rituals to do a lot of purging of, Any spirits that maybe aren't helping people and trying to bring in good spirits.

[00:43:17] The entrance is usually protected by a large bowl of water. People must wash their hands to prevent the spread of evil spirits. And I talked about this before. Let me tell you something. Back in the day, people were smart. People were a lot smarter than we give them sense about.

[00:43:31] Because, even like washing your hands, right? There's a lot of people like, oh, nobody washed their hands. There's a lot of cultures where people were already washing their hands. Just because the Europeans weren't doing doesn't mean other people were. Yeah, like .

[00:43:44] Kaitlyn: Okay. And the only reason the Spanish knew how to wash themselves is because of the mos

[00:43:51] Ashley: They were like, oh they're like, we hate them, but they seem to get sick a lot less than we do. But we are

[00:43:56] Kaitlyn: gonna use their potties now. and their [00:44:00] bathhouses.

[00:44:03] Ashley: I'm like, I always find that so funny because I'm like, all these, you read stuff like in school, they're like, oh, germ theory was created in the 1600s. I'm like, no, everybody else knew there was germs. Everybody else,

[00:44:16] Kaitlyn: nobody else had the black plague,

[00:44:18] Ashley: okay? Nobody, okay, no offense, I know, no offense to the French, but the French, still in the 1700s, they didn't have sewer systems.

[00:44:27] Okay? Indigenous people knew that you don't, literally, you don't eat where you shit. They said, over there is where we all go to the bathroom, and over here is the town. Like, but people in Paris weren't even doing that, and it wasn't the year 1700. But they want to say, I'm like, but you guys want to say everybody else is savages.

[00:44:47] Okay. That's fine.

[00:44:51] Kaitlyn: They really have a lot of

[00:44:53] Ashley: audacity. Audacity was on sale that day. It's ridiculous. [00:45:00] I could go on forever, but I'm not gonna, because we're going to talk more about what we were talking about. So there was some research done actually about like, Espiritismo de Cordoba, because they were like, where did all this like ritualistic dancing and trancing, like where did this all come from?

[00:45:17] At first people thought it came from like African traditional religions, but they found that they think it's actually the remains of Taino religious rituals. We talked about Tainos too on a prior episode that Taino people were in some of the islands in the Caribbean, they were the indigenous people there.

[00:45:33] Alright, then we have what you talked about which is your tradition, Espiritismo.

[00:45:40] Kaitlyn: Cruso? We pronounce it Crusal, but sometimes it's Crusado.

[00:45:43] Ashley: Okay. Just depends. Okay. Humans

[00:45:46] Kaitlyn: tend to skip letters.

[00:45:48] Ashley: Yeah, it's fine. It's no problem. It sounds better the way you say it. Anyway, I like that. Crusal. I like that.

[00:45:53] Okay, so it also means cross, like Caitlin already told us. And she told us about how it's very [00:46:00] popular in Cuba. Also, it has influences from folk Catholicism, and also, Palo, which is a Africanized, so it's actually like Congo religion. And again, something else, how we also talked about this in a prior episode, how a lot of the slaves for the first 200 years came from Central Africa, not West Africa.

[00:46:22] So a lot of Ganga and like different things that are very popular, even in certain, even in like Santeria, which people know it as like the Yoruba thing. Actually some of that is actually Congo stuff, so it's really interesting got blended in. So it's one of the more popular Espiritismo variants, especially in Cuba and it contains practices from the scientific, from Espiritismo de Cordon, but also has influences from, like we said, the Palo, the Congo religion folk Catholicism, they use, they talk about saints.

[00:46:57] In it. So we got a lot of that. They also have[00:47:00] the, okay, you tell me if I'm, if this is correct, Caitlin. So this is says they have a tradition called Regla de Ocha. Or

[00:47:10] Kaitlyn: Regla de Ocha is It's more commonly referred to as Santeria, or Lukumi.

[00:47:19] So the way it works is, Regla de Ocha is its own thing, and Espiritismo Cruzado is a part of Regla de Ocha. Oh, okay. So all... Ochas are Espiritistas, but not all Espiritistas are Ocha. Got it. If that, if, we can do

[00:47:39] Ashley: that. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Okay, thank you for clearing that up. I was confused. Again, I'm sorry.

[00:47:43] Don't, do

[00:47:44] Kaitlyn: not apologize. I

[00:47:47] Ashley: know. I'm just learning as I go. This is the whole point of this podcast, so we can all get a little smarter. So they also have, , A mass for the dead that's carried out by devotees, including tablecloth tables [00:48:00] with white cloth, herbs, and pictures of one's deceased relatives.

[00:48:03] And they light candles encouraging the spirits of their ancestors to go to the afterlife. And they also, the family then will try to commune with those spirits. And if the family member wants to tell them something, or, they will say what they want to tell their ancestor. Okay.

[00:48:20] Kaitlyn: Yeah. Yeah in MESAS, sometimes it's communing with the ancestors, especially if they're in need, or if the ancestors have a special message, but we also channel guides, spirit guides more elevated spirits, like folk spirits and then there's also something where, the mediums will sit and they'll see people.

[00:48:41] And do like a pláctica, where you have this opportunity to get a reading, and the medium will share whatever comes through with the client. And sometimes there's healings that happen there as well. Physical healings, spiritual healings. It really just depends on the needs of the group. On any given day. Yeah. Okay. And [00:49:00] I also find that, usually on our altars at mesas, at least from the people that I come from, because again, Espiritismo is one of those things where, It's different from family to family. But we don't put ancestors on those altars. That's a separate altar.

[00:49:15] Ashley: I think a lot of traditions do that. They'll have an ancestral altar. They'll have an altar for maybe their saints or their big deities. Things like that. So that makes a lot of sense. Okay. Then we have Puerto Rican Indigenous Espiritismo.

[00:49:30] So this shares a lot of similarities with its origins to Cuban Espiritismo. So this was a religious movement that encountered a lot of setbacks in the early years because people, the Catholic Church was like, absolutely not. I don't know what you guys are doing, but you can't do this. This isn't good.

[00:49:48] We don't like it. We can't make money off you this way. So apparently also the thing at this point was Alan Kardec's books had made it now from [00:50:00] Europe to the islands. But at this time, because this is this is 1800s still, there's a lot of the lower class in the islands indigenous people of color, they couldn't read, right?

[00:50:14] Or they weren't allowed to. They weren't allowed to go to school, they didn't have money like that. They didn't really know too much about it, but then it just got... Spread through everywhere and there became then two divisions of it So there was like the upper class of it And then there was like I don't want to call them the lower class because they weren't but there was the people who were maybe Socio economically not as privileged as the others.

[00:50:37] Yes, and they were in the more like rural settings But they mixed a lot of it with, again, folk Catholicism, and a lot of African religious stuff in it. And even Taino healing practices. So it became something where they knew about it, but they also made it their own. Espiritismo, now I'm just thinking [00:51:00] about it, really seems like a practice for the people.

[00:51:03] It, that's

[00:51:04] Kaitlyn: what I tell people. Yes! Yeah! It is a practice for the people. It's for everyone, yes. And, when I get really excited when I think about this stuff, because, even when you go back to Europe and Alan Kardec's Spirits book, which is one of the most, I think it's a, might be the book that's been translated into the most languages, aside from the Bible but, Spiritism, in particular, was very popular amongst anti fascist movements, among feminist movements, among communist movements, because they, it was a religion for the people and because it strived for altruism, it made the practitioners realize, this shit's fucked up.

[00:51:48] In a way that, Catholicism isn't going to tell you that. Because they're the ones running the show, right? And that's also part of the reason why it was so popular during the Cuban Revolution. [00:52:00] Because the Cubans were fighting for freedom from the United States, from their oppressors, and Cuban, Spirithismo became something that connected all of these different people who were fighting against, the upper class, like This is cool, fuck the church because they're connected with Spain and Spain wants to take our money, and that's why Espiritismo was popular for them, but for the lower classes who have had their homes, their identities, their culture, their language stolen from them, they're like, oh, this is familiar, this we can work with, this is something that we can use to fight back.

[00:52:41] Yes! Yes!

[00:52:42] Ashley: Back! Back!

[00:52:44] Kaitlyn: That's why a lot, it's, people don't realize when they come, I'm like, Secretly, I'm here to radicalize you. Surprise. You didn't

[00:52:50] Ashley: realize it. Surprise, exactly.

[00:52:52] Kaitlyn: You thought this was just gonna be about medium shit.

[00:52:55] Ashley: Surprise. Jump scare. [00:53:00]

[00:53:00] Kaitlyn: I am actually an anti imperialist.

[00:53:05] Ashley: You're like I just wanted you to tell me if my boyfriend's coming back.

[00:53:10] You're like, actually. Late stage capitalism sucks. Literally. I don't know

[00:53:18] Kaitlyn: why I'm so depressed and my stomach hurts. It's because late stage capitalism is literally hurting you.

[00:53:28] Ashley: Literally, lately, late stage capitalism has been my answer to everybody. I don't know what's wrong with me. I'm having a headache.

[00:53:34] All that late stage capitalism.

[00:53:39] Inflation. My

[00:53:42] Kaitlyn: husband and I will be laying in bed and we're usually wonderful to say besides the crushing weight of late stage capitalism, I'm fine.

[00:53:51] Ashley: Everything's fine. Besides the fact that, one peach is five dollars, I don't know,

[00:53:59] Kaitlyn: I think [00:54:00] I'm good. Bread is nine dollars. Out of your goddamn mind?

[00:54:05] It's water and flour and

[00:54:07] Ashley: heat! Why is this so expensive? It's

[00:54:13] Kaitlyn: crazy. It doesn't make sense. It's not working. It's not working. And that's, again, one of the things that makes me so fucking excited about Esperitismo because it is. It's a practice of the people. It is a practice of liberation, and it starts with liberating yourself and the ripple effect that has on the world around you.

[00:54:37] And so many of the things the spirits will ask you to do are like, bring water to your local community fridge. Things that are about taking care of your neighbors, your community, the most vulnerable people in your community. Those are the things that your spirits start asking you to do.

[00:54:54] And, that, that type of work is what [00:55:00] rewards us with more access to the resources that we need too. And the spirits never ask us to give outside of Our resources are like, we don't want you to buy food for the fridge if you can't buy food for yourself. Yeah. It's like little things that make the difference.

[00:55:15] They notice you've got that extra $3 in your pocket for whatever reason you have changed that day. You're gonna feel them in your head saying, you should hand it to that unhoused person. . And you do it. And those are the ways your spirit. It's work with you through Espiritismo and like you're never so far gone that they can't help you like be a better human and I think that's It's

[00:55:36] Ashley: cool.

[00:55:37] It's so cool! I love that! Yes! We love it! Oh gosh, this is great. So there's oh, see, there's like a, there's a lot, guys. Okay, another thing about indigenous Esperantismo again, it being of the people, you'll see here, there's branches. Even in just this one branch, there's more [00:56:00] branches.

[00:56:00] There's Creolized, like you said, Spiritism. There's Espiritismo Cresado, which I think is different than yours. It's

[00:56:10] Kaitlyn: the same. It's just a different spelling. Oh, okay,

[00:56:12] Ashley: just a different spelling. And then Espiritismo

[00:56:18] Cardiacisano, which is more strict. There's a lot. Yeah. And then there's some practitioners who also practice Cuban Santeria, Haitian Voodoo, Dominicans 21 Divisions, like depending on what they're doing, but they will add Espiritismo into their practice. Again, of the people, for the people, by the people.

[00:56:40] Literally. It's great. Yeah.

[00:56:42] Kaitlyn: Yeah, that's the other thing that's cool, too, is as you practice Espiritismo and you get to know who your guides are, who your ancestors are, it leads you to other types of spiritual traditions that you get to incorporate into your practice. Not only the traditions, your guides will help you find the teachers, they will help you find the elders and the mentors, and my [00:57:00] whole house is like, is altars now.

[00:57:03] Altars everywhere. But that's also that's sacrifice. We sacrifice space in our homes so that our spirits can pour back into us. And sacrifice is a big part of the practice too. And not like a sacrifice so that you are like down and out type of way, but the spirits know what you're able to give.

[00:57:23] And they will ask for it. I think that, Christianity Has created this illusion that like Christ gave the ultimate sacrifice so that you don't ever have to and it's no Christ gave an example of what ultimate sacrifice can look like and for him, that's what it was. For him it was life That's for us.

[00:57:43] It's gonna be different things. Yeah, and we've got to be open to that in order to sometimes you have to get rid of a habit. Sometimes you have to get rid of a relationship There's different ways to work

[00:57:55] Ashley: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. It's [00:58:00] so true. I love it. You got Santurissimo, which is a mixture of Santeria and Espiritismo.

[00:58:08] And then you've got, oh, then we got, okay, great. Now we're going right into our story time with the last one. Yay. I forgot I did that. Great. Yay. Okay. Okay. So the last one we were talking about is. Venezuelan.

[00:58:24] Spiritism. . So this has a lot to do with our central figure, but I'm gonna read this little thing to you first. Spirito originated in for the Venezuelan people, it's a little different. So they originated in the 14th century, came from the rural tribes of the Caribe people in central Venezuela.

[00:58:42] It spread throughout Venezuela, but it's more popular there than anywhere this specific type. They have a central figure named Maria Lionza, and Maria Lionza has her own monument in the middle of Caracas in Venezuela. A [00:59:00] big picture and I'll put it on the blog so everyone can see she's got perky boobs and she's holding something up and she's on top of this animal and I forget what it's called but it's related to a pig and it has like a long snout.

[00:59:12] It's very interesting. It's not a capybara because I was like, is that a capybara? It's not. Yeah. It's different. But they're cousins. They're probably cousins. They're related. Yeah. So you're like, what is that? So every year on October 12th. This is in Venezuela, the day of indigenous resistance. So this is the day that a lot of the followers of Maria Lyonza cult go up to this place called Sorte Mountain.

[00:59:41] It's in northwestern Venezuela, and they take part in a bunch of different rituals and prayers. They call themselves Maria Lyonzeros, and their practice is a blend of African, indigenous, spiritualist and catholic beliefs. So [01:00:00] for them, Maria is the goddess of love, peace, harmony in nature. They're also called queen of the jungle.

[01:00:09] She is just this figure of amazingness that is living up there. She, so what's the backstory here? Because I love a backstory. So Maria There's a couple different stories. One of the stories is that when she was born, okay, this is before the Conquistadors, all of that, so there was a prophecy that was foretold that a green eyed child would be born and her life would be a disaster.

[01:00:39] That sucks, the disaster part. But she was born and she had green eyes, and everyone was like, Must be her. Yeah, it must be her. She came here to mess it up. Apparently, her Her father was this very predominant person. And, for some reason, sent her up to live on Sorte Mountain. We don't know exactly why.

[01:00:59] But she went up to [01:01:00] live there. Now, a couple things happened. We don't know which one is true. Number one, they said that Anaconda swallowed her. And then she prayed to the gods to help her. And the gods were like, we'll help you, but when you come out, you have to become part of the mountain. And she's like okay, fine.

[01:01:16] So they did. So that's one part of the story. The other story is that this anaconda fell in love with her, and they got married, and that's how she became queen of the jungle. Because the anaconda was king of the jungle. And the other one is that she threw herself into a lake to sacrifice. herself for the Anaconda.

[01:01:36] So I don't know which one is right, but it doesn't matter. This is the story. So she is really gracious and helps people. That's her big thing is helping people through ritual and all this kind of stuff, but also she punishes people who hurt nature or hurt the jungle.

[01:01:57] So her work, when, her practitioners, [01:02:00] they, there's a big celebration on her day. They go up to the mountain, there's drumming, there's chanting, there's mediumship going on, the spirits are being channeled through these mediums to so people, also people who need help in any sort of way. They maybe need healing, someone, their family's sick, they're sick.

[01:02:21] They need a job, whatever the situation, a woman who's trying to get pregnant or whatever, a person who can have babies trying to get pregnant, whatever the situation may be. They can go up there and they can ask the spirits to channel other deities and other spirits to help them figure out either what they need to do to get the things that they need or want, or if those spirits can bestow these blessings on them.

[01:02:47] There's a lot of drumming. There's a lot of music. It actually sounds really fun. There's a lot of food. That's also fun. That's what I want. Also when they, the serious worshipers of Maria [01:03:00] they're divided into five different courts. So there's the court of Africans, which include the seven African powers.

[01:03:06] So these are like the seven most important Orishas. So this like Obatala, Shango, Ogun, Okun, Shango, Obatula, Orumila, Oya Oshun, and Yemaya. And then you have the Celestial Court, which includes angels, so think Archangel Michael and Gabriel and all those guys. And saints Catholic saints, remember we're still, there's a lot of folk Catholicism going on.

[01:03:34] We're in a Catholic country, right? Then we have the court of, here they call them the, in most of the articles I read, they call them the court of Indians, so that's why I'm saying that. Which is led by Guadalcarpuro, which is the chief who was Maria's dad.

[01:03:51] And then you have the court of liberators led by Simón Bolívar, which I thought was so interesting, because I was like, wait, Simón[01:04:00]

[01:04:03] Bolívar? Hey, from Haiti! Yeah. Yeah, right? Yeah, so I was like, that's really interesting that, that he's in this court, but I was like, that's cool. And then you have the Court of Vikings, also. Oh. Yeah, I don't know. So I found this in some of them, but not everywhere said this, the Court of Vikings.

[01:04:18] Mostly I found the first four. But one of them was like, it's a court of vikings too, and I'm like, huh, I don't know if that's everybody, maybe it's just some people. Then Maria has her own personal court, so it's that her dad, Waiakayaporo, and then Nigro Felipe and Nigro Francisca. Nigro Felipe was a slave brought from, I think Nigeria over to, Cuba.

[01:04:47] And he was a slave who was helping , the liberation of the country. And then, Nigro Francisco was his wife. They are also her own, personal court guide people. So it's really, it, this. It's [01:05:00] very unique to Venezuela. It's like a Venezuelan thing, right?

[01:05:04] Kaitlyn: Yes. Yes and no

[01:05:06] Okay. Okay. Yeah. Tell me. At least in the tradition that I'm from, we also honor different quarts of spirits. , and I guess for us, we call them quartz or legions. Okay. For others you might refer to them as archetypes. Okay. Yeah. Makes sense. And we have. We also have the seven African powers, we have the celestial spirits, angels, archangels, we have our saints, we have our spirits of liberation we also have, they call them los vagabandos, or the bohemians, these are your transient spirits, unhoused people, like they have their own court of guides, and I think it's really beautiful the way Espiritismo elevates.

[01:05:49] Those who are often discarded. We have our court. They call them Los Congos because so much influence came from Congolese people. [01:06:00] We have. I call them Los Nativos, but in Spanish they used to call them Los Indios. We have Las Gitanas. Those are our Romani ancestors that came from Spain as well. We have Los Medicos, which are your healing spirits.

[01:06:15] They're more like your technical medical spirits. Then you have your court of like shamans, brujas other espiritistas that help with more spiritual ailments and spiritual things. And... It's really neat how each of these courts have their heads, and usually the head is different depending on whatever region you're from and I also find that, I think it's interesting that in Venezuelan Espiritismo they have this head, Maria, and then in the tradition that I'm from, because it's unique to the region, like our head is Maria Caridad.

[01:06:51] Which is an apparition of the Blessed Mother. And she is an apparition of the Mother who appeared [01:07:00] to an enslaved boy and two indentured workers, I believed, who, they were working at like a copper mill. And they were out on the water, and the waters got really rough and violent, and like, her statue appeared to them.

[01:07:17] And the waters calmed immediately, and they brought her statue in, and she's actually one of the Black Madonna, but I remember, like, growing up, I was like, Dad, why is our Mary black and the one

[01:07:28] Ashley: in

[01:07:31] the church is white? Like, what does it mean? Like, I'm confused.

[01:07:36] Kaitlyn: All the pictures of her at school are not the same. But, like, we all, like, she's at the head of our particular cult. I guess it's a cult. Our cult of Espiritismo revolves around this mother, and I think it's really cool that different sects of Espiritismo all come back to these divine mothers who reveal themselves [01:08:00] to the most oppressed of people in the region and offer their solace and love and protection to them first.

[01:08:09] And I don't know, I also feel like that's the secret magic of like the Blessed Mother in general and why so many folk Catholics like cling to their rosaries so hard and like if you talk to folk Catholics, like they love Mary. They love Mary and it's because behind Mary's veil She introduces us to all the great Mother Spirits who came before her and after her.

[01:08:34] There's a reason why she looks like the people she reveals herself to. Whether she's brown skin or black skin or if she's in Europe, she has white skin. It's because she wants you to see who came first. To see who the Catholic Church tried to use her image to hide. Like, radical. I think that's radical.

[01:08:57] She's like it's not just me in here. Like, come a little bit [01:09:00] closer and I'll tell you more. And I think that's so cool! And I also feel, I really think that's why, later versions of Christianity, when the great schism happened there's no saints and there's no Mary. Yes. You are not allowed to venerate saints or Mary in those spaces, and I think it's because the saints and Mary Like, don't give a fuck about the church.

[01:09:22] Yeah. They care about people, and earth, and being good humans, and being good caregivers, and I don't know, it's delicious and cool to see the way these spirits are like, Oh, come see our secrets, and we'll tell you, the real truth, ah, that's magical to me. And also, these different courts of spirits.

[01:09:44] And Espiritismo is something that we believe is that we practitioners, we the living, whether we realize it or not, are influenced by the spirits who walk with us. And if there are certain things that you're really interested in, certain things you're really [01:10:00] gifted in, it's because you have spirits who walk with you, who are of courts, that do that work as well.

[01:10:06] Yes. Yes. So if you're a really good diviner, you've got spirits with you who are diviners. If you're an excellent Poet. Do you have spirits with you who are poets? And I just think that's so cool and magical.

[01:10:19] Ashley: Yes! I love that! Yes! And it reminds me of when we talk about ancestors and, who you can call on for ancestors.

[01:10:26] And we talk about you can call on ancestors of your vocation. If you are, like you said, a diviner. If you're a doctor, your ancestors could be other doctors from wherever in time, wherever they lived. So you can call on them when you need strength and when you need help, and that's, look, it's for everybody, and like you said, Mary at that point, she was like, it's not about church, I want to help you guys, and that's why all these, yes, like you said, that's why all these practices, and even, like, when I was reading about Maria our girl here[01:11:00] the people of Venezuela, if you didn't know, are going through it, it sucks, they're, Government sucks and a lot of them now are even more close to to Espiritismo and Maria because they're like we need help from the land and from the people because our figureheads are not helping us.

[01:11:20] And this system has broken down and people are going back to the land and to try to help each other because they're like we can't rely on this. These people at the top. Yeah, again, look at this, bringing this phrase full circle. Again, a faith, a practice, a spirituality of the people, like, all reaching to each other and reaching to the heavens and their deities and their guides and their ancestors to help them.

[01:11:45] And it's just one big circle of life. I love it. It is. Yeah. Oh. This is so great. Oh my god. I think it's so great. Yes. I literally been getting chills this whole time we're talking. All my spirits are like, yeah! They're I[01:12:00]

[01:12:03] know!

[01:12:08] Okay. I can't go any further with it. That note was great. Caitlin gave us a great synopsis, so we're not going to keep talking.

[01:12:18] Nothing else I can say more elegant than the way that they just said it. So this brings us to the end of our show. Caitlin, this has been so awesome. Thank you so This has been so great. Can you find... Can you find, can you tell people where they can find you on the internet or whatever or what else, whatever you're doing?

[01:12:40] Kaitlyn: Let us know. Absolutely. Yeah. You can find me on the internet at motherofmystics. com You can find me on, all of my handles are different everyone. I'm so sorry. You can find me on Instagram, which is where I post, honestly, sign up for my newsletter because that's where all the good shit comes from. Go on my website, [01:13:00] sign up for my newsletter.

[01:13:01] If you want to follow me on Instagram, it's katelyn. grana. If you want to follow me on TikTok, that's mostly where I shitpost and like repost. And my reposting is really good. I have excellent taste. In TikToks, but it's cry now underscore cry later. I love that! I love to cry.

[01:13:20] Ashley: Yes!

[01:13:24] Kaitlyn: But yeah, that's where you can find me. And actually, I will be opening up Into the Veil very soon. Probably like in the next couple weeks. And Into the Veil is my group mentorship in Espiritismo Cruzado.

[01:13:39] Ashley: Okay, you heard it here first, folks. You did their newsletter so you don't miss when they open. Come on.

[01:13:49] You want to learn more. Caitlin is the one to check it out. Thank you so much. Thank you. Again, this has been fun and educational. I needed it [01:14:00] because I was like, I don't know how I'm going to talk about this. I am very confused.

[01:14:05] I was struggling. I know, I was struggling. I was like, ooh, this is going to be rough. And then when you were like, oh, I love to talk about the history, I was like, yes! I needed help and the spirits gave it to me in the form of Caitlyn. Yay!

[01:14:20] Kaitlyn: Ask and you shall receive.

[01:14:24] Ashley: This is fantastic. Oh boy. Thank you everybody for being here and listening.

[01:14:30] And again, all of Caitlyn's links will be in the show notes. You can go there and just easy click 1, 2, 3 and sign up for their stuff. And again, this is Dine With Infinite Vine. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook. TikTok, sometimes I don't always post, but you can follow us. So if you like the show, please pause now and give us a rating.

[01:14:49] That always helps. And if you wanna follow me, Ashley, I'm Sankofa. H s s a N k O F A H S on Instagram and Threads.[01:15:00] And they take of a healing sanctuary on Facebook. So thank you everybody so much for being here. Again, thank you, Caitlin. And I'll see all of you next week.

[01:15:08] Bye! Bye!