Memphis BBQ, Strong Mountain Women and Betsy is a Liar with Stacy Williams-Ng

Stacy

===

[00:00:00] Ashley: Hi everybody and welcome to D with the Divine. I'm your host, Ashley, and together we'll be exploring the magical, the mystical and everything in between. So on today's episode, we're gonna talk about your friendly neighborhood, healers and a Tennessee haunting. Today I'm very excited. We have a fantastic guest.

[00:00:22] .

[00:00:22] MacBook Air Microphone-2: I'm Stacy Williams on.

[00:00:25] Ashley: Stacy is a multidisciplinary artist and creator of the Southern gothic oracle and the Southern botanical Oracle, A native Southerner from Memphis. Stacey takes great pride in researching the various traditions and the legends of the South in order to add depth and meaning to her divination systems.

[00:00:44] She's been interested in magic, symbolism, esoteric folklore, and tarot for as long as she can remember. Stacey's also a mural painter and has painted murals in several cities. Quote, I like finding ways to make art accessible to [00:01:00] everyone, rather than just being a framed canvas in a room somewhere. Quote.

[00:01:04] Stacy is a 10th generation American Southerner, a mother of two, a terra reader, a pretty decent cook and a roller skater. Yay. That's me Miss, how are you? I'm alright. How are you, Ashley? I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I always end up asking people like you said in your bio you've been doing, you've been interested in all these things for as long as you remember.

[00:01:30] Is there anybody that you feel in your life like inspired you to get into that? Or have you just grew up with this kind of curiosity for the magical end of things?

[00:01:41] Stacy: Would it be weird if I said my imaginary friend.

[00:01:45] Ashley: No, that's totally fine. It would be fine.

[00:01:46] Stacy: Yeah. That totally would be, you know what, I'm just gonna go with it.

[00:01:49] Cause even if it's weird, that's

[00:01:51] Ashley: The truth. I,

[00:01:54] Stacy: here's the thing, I was brought up in a very strict Southern Baptist household, [00:02:00] so nobody was talking about witchcraft in a good way. Or any kind of magic type stuff. But I was a weird little only child. And I had an imaginary friend named Herman.

[00:02:12] And he was an older middle aged man. And he was, he would sit with me while I would, cuz I played alone. Cuz I'm an only child. I'm playing with Barbies, I'm drawing. And I would just be talking away and it would just be me and Herman, and. No one in our family was named Herman.

[00:02:29] There were no characters on TV named Herman. Like, where did I even come up with this? And I was totally attached to this. He was like an uncle, like a cool uncle. Yeah. And we never did figure out who he was. And I think I was a young adult before I was finally like, I think that was a

[00:02:46] Ashley: spirit, yeah. Herman, the spirit. Okay. Herman. I know. No,

[00:02:51] Stacy: I dunno. I've now, extensively researched my ancestry and I know my family tree anding, so there, there are no herons, but he might have been someone who lived in the [00:03:00] house. He might have been a land spirit. I don't know. He could have been anybody, but I really liked him.

[00:03:05] Yeah. I haven't seen him since, but I really liked him at the time. He was a nice man. Aw, yeah. That's

[00:03:11] Ashley: so sweet. I had imaginary friends too. And I also was like, I was an only child. I'm not an only child, but I was an only child, so I was like eight. So I think, yeah, it was just like a thing. Yeah. And but you couldn't tell me that.

[00:03:26] Also, this is really random. I used to think my dolls came alive at night. Like of course they did. Yeah, and I used to be like very nice to them. Like I used to have a bed for like my stuffed animals and stuff, . Not nice. So yeah, I think I love I feel like we all need more of that child like, wonder cuz yeah, it's good.

[00:03:49] And I love it. And when did you discover that you were so talented in art?

[00:03:54] Did you always just like to draw or do other art drawings? Not the only thing. There's [00:04:00] other artistic stuff, but whatever you like to do.

[00:04:03] Stacy: So here's the thing. I love to teach classes on creativity, and I was like a college level instructor in graphic design. And so I have really strong feelings about everybody being an artist.

[00:04:13] Oh. But you do ask a legitimate question. There it's the thing about every, to me, every kindergartner is an artist. Every kindergartner is an artist. You can't walk into a kindergarten class and typically find the kid who's the best at art. You ask the class, Who in here is the best at art?

[00:04:29] Every damn kid in that room is gonna raise their hand. It's like it's bad, but then you go to like first grade, it's only been one year, and it's half the class. And then you go to second grade and they're all like, oh, it's Ashley. Like it's that fast. It's that fast. And it's every kindergarten class everywhere.

[00:04:47] And this phenomenon to me is so interesting because something is happening right around that age, or six of seven, or maybe it's not even the age. Maybe it's just like being in society and out of, the [00:05:00] comfort of your own home. Like having to go into the world and sit in a classroom.

[00:05:04] That makes us all start to doubt our ability to do stuff. So honestly, I think that kids that it's a natural human thing to express yourself with writing, withdrawing. This is why we have cave paintings. Like I could make the whole, honest to God, I could make the whole podcast about this and I'm not gonna, but I really feel strongly about this.

[00:05:25] I feel that we all can do it. It's a human ability, but I think most of us just stop. I just didn't stop. That's it.

[00:05:34] Ashley: Oh, wow. That makes sense. That also that makes a lot of sense too, because art is all about I'm not an artist, but this is from what I see on tv. Yes you are. Yes you are. I guess art is all about interpretation, right?

[00:05:51] Like Yeah, so it can literally be whatever you want it to be, as long as you like. I remember when I was in school going [00:06:00] to a museum, I think it was like the Princeton University Art Museum, cuz I don't live far from there. And there was just like a white, like a red box. And I was like, okay.

[00:06:12] And they're like, yeah this is like it was a red, it looked like a red shoebox on the wall. And I was like, so what are we doing here? And then I remember, yeah, but

[00:06:22] Stacy: that's also your conditioning. You know what I mean? We have taken these artists and especially like white male artists especially, for centuries and just been like, that's what good painting is.

[00:06:36] And then look at masks and be like, oh, that's just folk art. What?

[00:06:41] Ashley: What are you talking? I know.

[00:06:43] Stacy: Just because something is painted in photorealistic detail does not make it better than an abstract painting. I think an abstract painting in many ca cases is so much better. Look at the art of ancient Egypt or China.

[00:06:55] Where the whole idea of it being abstract is what's so mind blowing about it, yeah. It's [00:07:00] that's only five lines, but I can tell it's an ox like, wow. Yeah. And to me it's like true. I think we've just been so conditioned to be like, if it looks Roman or if it looks like it's from the Renaissance, in other words, if it looks old and white, it's good art.

[00:07:15] I dunno, I'm taking the whole podcast in another direction cuz I just, no. And I care about this stuff so much. It's like murals are art, like cupcakes are art. That red box you saw is art. Like art is about, it's a thing. It's like sexuality. You self-identify as an artist. Yeah. Okay. So when people say, I'm an artist, and all they do is like glue quins on their sneakers, but then somebody who's really great at sculpting says, I'm not an artist.

[00:07:45] I'm not good enough. We've all seen this happen, right? So whether you're an artist or not is it's about self-identification.

[00:07:53] Ashley: Yeah. That is true. And you're not taking this anywhere that we shouldn't take it because [00:08:00] look, art to me. Yeah. Cause art is a real art is like a real ga art is in everything, right?

[00:08:09] Like you said, like to me. Yeah. Like when I looked at that red, when I looked at that red box, I was like, I don't get it. And then I remember also we had these, we went to, I think it was a Smithsonian and there was just this like marble circle and I was like, cool. But I don't, I didn't get it. Was it cool?

[00:08:26] Yeah, it was cool that somebody just carved this perfectly beautiful marble circle and it was just like a ring, but I was like, I don't get it. But then I look at people who like, do, like I saw a, like you're talking about sequins on sneakers, which I think is awesome. And that's yes. And then I saw somebody who was doing like, in just embroidering different converse shoes with little flowers.

[00:08:48] That's awesome. So It just, yeah, you're right. Everybody is an artist. I guess it just depends on, you can look at somebody like REM rant and it's like we're told, you're right. We're all conditioned, we're told That's [00:09:00] good. That's the same way. Okay. I'm gonna sound really rude right now, but like when people talk about Salvador Dolly, I don't like his paintings.

[00:09:07] They make me uncomfortable. And people like Exactly, yeah. He's one of the greatest artist. And I'm like, he's like genius. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe he's, but all the melting is upsetting me. Like I know.

[00:09:18] Stacy: Seriously, I'm not such a blockhead that if you took me to a museum, that I would be the one that every single thing would be like, but Ashley, it's all art.

[00:09:25] I'm not that bad. I totally will go to a museum and be like, Ew, we're not even going in there. That's stupid. But that's because that's actually just drives my point home even more because I think everything is art. Like my son, when we used to go to museums and he was really little, it was so funny.

[00:09:41] Like we would be going through the hallway to go into another gallery and he would look at the chair or the bench and be like, mommy, is that art? And I'd be like, is that a philosophical question or do you need to sit down? He's I need to sit down. I'd be like, it's not art babe, just sit on the, just sit on the bench.

[00:09:58] It's fine. You can sit here.[00:10:00]

[00:10:03] Yes. But he, even my little children were like, mommy's weird. You have to ask her if it's art or not.

[00:10:10] Ashley: But there's, yes, because people who are carpenters who make all sorts of cool stuff, they're artists. That's totally, that's some, yeah. That's a talent. And that's something not everybody can do.

[00:10:22] And people do things with wood because, Yeah. That's their what you would call it, that's their way of doing their medium, yes.

[00:10:28] Stacy: And you know what, to segue back into magic, this is actually what got me into witchcraft was doing okay because for a long time, I completely, like I said, I'm a, I said this, I'm a recovering evangelical and there were many years that I was just an atheist, which I don't really look at those years as being, they are freer than the years I was growing up evangelical, but I don't know if they were necessarily happier. And I needed to find my way back into a spirituality that I could work with.

[00:10:56] In order to just be fulfilled as a person. [00:11:00] And as I was working towards that journey, art was my religion, honestly. Wow. And I used to say that when people were like, oh, do you been to church? Or whatever, if that question ever came up, which never asked people that, but when people did ask that sort of thing or say, Oh, you're an atheist, but you're a spiritual person.

[00:11:19] Tho any kind of inquiry I would respond with well art's my religion. Yeah. And, that got me through a long period of my life actually. That gave me a lot. And now art is still, I think, a big part of my practice. It's a form of magic that I use. That is how I manifest my dreams.

[00:11:40] Ashley: I love that.

[00:11:41] That's so beautiful. And look and through, it makes sense throughout the centuries of the world, people use art to express how they felt about the, non-physical plane or be their creator creators or God's goddesses, whatever. So that makes perfect sense and that's such a [00:12:00] cool way to connect, with that part of you.

[00:12:02] I love that. And you're just doing it all the time. That's so cool. Yeah. Like

[00:12:07] Stacy: Sigils are like that. I don't actually practice with Sigils, but anytime you're actually like taking something and making it with your hands, I feel like candle magic in many ways is like that too. Anytime people are using, which is why I love folk magic so much.

[00:12:21] Not just cuz I'm Southern, but there's something in me where cooking and touching plants and foods and sauces and paint and messy things. Yes. Just being dirty and doing stuff is just such a huge part of our existence down here, but also my existence as a person. So all that stuff.

[00:12:41] Making stuff that's,

[00:12:42] Ashley: yeah, that's how I feel about gardening. Yeah. Like I love to garden. I'm not really good at it, but like I like doing it same. And when I put, yeah, when I put my hands in a dirt. You like, feel, you're like, I feel this. Like I'm one with everything right now.[00:13:00] I'm gonna grow something like, this is wild.

[00:13:03] So Yeah, I get it. Yeah. Absolutely. Oh gosh. I know. I love that. Okay, so we're gonna go cuz we have a lot to talk about today. We're gonna, we're gonna go and we're gonna talk about our dish of the week. So this week our dish of the week, I did something different. I've done it before, but you said you're from Memphis?

[00:13:26] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I found this I found this list and it's called the Memphis Bucket Food List and it's, yeah, know.

[00:13:35] Stacy: Get ready. We, Memphis Chief Memphians have big opinions on this. I might rant. Okay, let's go.

[00:13:41] Ashley: Let's go. Okay, so then I love it. These are seven things or, and places, I guess restaurants too.

[00:13:50] Places that you need to eat before you die according to this. I'm so ready.

[00:13:55] Stacy: I'm so ready for the barbecue. I'm so ready for the barbecue. You don't even know [00:14:00]

[00:14:00] Ashley: Russ. Go. So there's so much barbecue happening. Yes so the first things is, okay, so this is the dish. So it is Honey Gold Wings. What did they talk about?

[00:14:13] I don't know. That's what it's on. This what's on here. I'm not from Memphis. I just read an article of. And it's you saying no kinda

[00:14:24] Stacy: Yankee taro pottery,

[00:14:31] Ashley: honey, you get

[00:14:33] Stacy: that at the grocery store. Anybody can get that at the grocery store. What are they even talking about? Stop torturing

[00:14:41] Ashley: me next. Ok, next. Okay, honey Gold Wings are canceled for right now. We're not talking about that anymore. So then we have this is a barbecue joint, so this is Cozy Corner Barbecue.

[00:14:56] No. No, say no [00:15:00] please Lord Jesus. No. Like top 10.

[00:15:08] Stacy: Not even like top 10. I could give you 10 right now. I could drop and give you 10. And corner Wouldn't even make 11.

[00:15:16] Ashley: Oh no, not cozy. Okay. Cozy corner's also canceled. So we can't do it even though they said you can get some Cornish hen there. And

[00:15:29] Cornish. He, I

[00:15:34] God. Oh no. Oh no.

[00:15:44] Oh my God. Okay.

[00:15:46] Stacy: White. And I know this like Jesus Christ. Anyway, go on.

[00:15:51] Ashley: Oh no, I'm so nervous. Ok, so the next one they have Arcade Restaurant. Yes. [00:16:00] Okay, I'll give you that. Okay. Okay. It says it's one of the oldest restaurants in Memphis? No, it's the oldest. Oh, okay. It's the oldest. Okay. And they say the food is incredible.

[00:16:10] They have the classic Elvis, which is, oh no, the food's not that good. Oh, food's terrible. No, it's, oh, okay. But you just Oh's arcade. I love you. I

[00:16:18] Stacy: love going there. I love bringing my friends when they come out of town, arcade, if you're listening, big props, but there's way too much butter in the grits.

[00:16:25] Like y'all need to hold that. They need to hold that grits are not supposed to be soup, there's a consistency that makes grits perfect. You have to, and if it's cheese grits, you want it to be like rich and thick, and if it's got cream in it, you want to Pour from the spoon a little bit.

[00:16:41] Like it needs to stick to the spoon, but pour a little bit. This is like grit soup, like floating in butter. And I can't predict that. However, the environment's adorable because it's the oldest one, and you walk in, tide is there, and it's on South Maine and it's like in the whole like cool area where the IDA b [00:17:00] well statue is and the Amtrak station, and it's got this whole vibe going on.

[00:17:04] So I feel like

[00:17:05] Ashley: atmosphere is important. No, atmosphere is very important, I have to say. Okay. I have, I don't. Know anything about grits? I've had grits like once in my life. I literally had some grits. I literally had that for breakfast this morning.

[00:17:22] Stacy: That's what I had this morning for breakfast.

[00:17:25] Ashley: I think I've had grits once in my life and I was like, I don't.

[00:17:29] I was in New Orleans. Okay. So I was like, okay, I feel like this should be legit. Yeah, we, I don't remember the name of the restaurant, but we went somewhere and I was like, okay, this is fine. But it was just like, I also am like a weird consistency person, so I'm like yes. Yeah. This is a little pretty

[00:17:45] Stacy: for me.

[00:17:45] I have, and that's why it's supposed to be perfect, like grits is supposed to be like this perfect porridge that's just, it's really just polenta. You go into a fancy Italian restaurant and get polenta, that's what grits is. It's just a little like more saucy than that, but, okay.

[00:17:58] Anyway, it's just [00:18:00] funny to me, cuz I think New Orleans wouldn't be a perfect place to get grits, believe it or not. I know it's Southern, but New Orleans has a really strong French Creole culture, right? Yeah. And so there's a lot of Caribbean food that came in. Haitian food, obviously French food. But this is, but grits is more of a Mississippi Delta Ozark type situation.

[00:18:17] Ashley: Okay. All right. All right.

[00:18:20] Stacy: Because there wasn't a lot of corn growing down, in the New

[00:18:22] Ashley: Orleans. Yeah. They have the classic Elvis sandwich there, apparently with peanut butter and banana sandwich. That, I don't know.

[00:18:29] Not my thing, but maybe it's somebody's That's fine. Saying

[00:18:33] Stacy: fun fact about me, my dad and Elvis went to high school together.

[00:18:36] Ashley: Really? Yeah.

[00:18:37] Stacy: Oh.

[00:18:42] Ashley: Oh my gosh. Really?

[00:18:44] Stacy: Yeah. So you don't need to go to a restaurant to make a peanut butter and banana sandwich. That's the whole point of poor people food. You need two slices of wonder bread. You need a banana and you need some jif peanut butter. That's all you need. Yeah.

[00:18:58] Ashley: I, oh, that's just me. [00:19:00] I don't know how it tastes good, but whatever.

[00:19:02] It's

[00:19:02] good.

[00:19:03] Stacy: No, it's good. I didn't know it was an Elvis thing. I grew up and everybody just ate that in their houses. It was either peanut butter and jelly, or peanut butter and bananas.

[00:19:10] Ashley: It's just interesting. Yeah. Okay. I do like peanut butter and I do like bananas, so maybe I'll try one. You should try it.

[00:19:18] It's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I'll get up the hutz spot to do it. Okay. Then we have, all right, don't scream at me, Stacy. Then we have central barbecue. No. Okay, nevermind. We're canceling it. The service

[00:19:32] Stacy: is terrible central. Your, oh, okay. I'm gonna tell you what the barbecue is on Lamar, and it's paints, P A Y N E S.

[00:19:41] Ashley: Okay. Pains, barbecue.

[00:19:42] Stacy: It's a shack and it's always got a long line. And it's been family owned for generations. It's black owned, it's, just amazing. And here's the funny thing about Paynes, other than just like how great the barbecue is, that's not funny. Extremely serious. But [00:20:00] they put greens and coloring in the small, so they, it's like their thing.

[00:20:04] So when you go, you get this amazing barbecue sandwich, they're just like, make my mouth watering. Just talking about it. You get this like tower of a barbecue sandwich and then you get your little bowl of plastic, bowl of beans and your little plastic bowl of slaw and it's like neon green.

[00:20:23] Ashley: I'd be like, ok, so why?

[00:20:27] Stacy: The slaw is okay, but the barbecue is just knock your socks off. Great.

[00:20:31] Ashley: Yes. Okay. This is so random, but I like randomly was on Netflix one night, like doing stuff, so I was like, what can I put on in the background? And I think I started putting on like this barbecue competition show. Yeah. I don't, oh, I have a barbecue that I just make, hotdog or whatever on.

[00:20:49] Yeah. This is a whole situation. I also, I have a friend in my knitting group who's from Texas and yeah. Her and her husband do like barbecue, [00:21:00] but she was explaining too about like Texas and how it's like a situation. I'm, oh yeah, no, that's beef

[00:21:05] Stacy: barbecue. Texas is their thing and Memphis is our thing.

[00:21:09] Okay. And first also, Texas is bigger than France and Memphis is only a city, but yeah, Texas does beef, barbecue. They're all about brisket. Their brisket is amazing and it's great yest. Really great brisket in Memphis. Unless you're going to an actual, there's some displaced Texans living here, then you'll get it.

[00:21:27] Yeah. Yeah. But we do pork barbecue, and also chicken. Okay. But mostly like pork barbecue. We fry the chicken, we barbecue the pork.

[00:21:35] Ashley: That's the Memphis thing. It's like bar. The whole culture of, I didn't realize it was like a subculture of people who are just like really into barbecuing shit.

[00:21:46] Yes. And like the smoker and the type of

[00:21:50] Stacy: wood and, oh, break up over this. It's way bigger of a deal if I am not expressing. Don't words fail [00:22:00] me to express what a good deal. It's down here and I'm a wordy person like it is a lot. And people, and it's so funny to just go on Facebook and find any post that, even if it's from a national source, some tourism, like 24 hours in Memphis, Tennessee or whatever. Find one of those and then find any recommendation on barbecue. They say, go to the rendezvous, go to central, go to whatever, and you'll just find hundreds and hundreds of scathing costs. People just losing their

[00:22:33] Ashley: mind

[00:22:40] Stacy: and like middle finger and This

[00:22:42] Ashley: I'm.

[00:22:57] Stacy: It's too much. It's too much. That's why I [00:23:00] said, oh, you're gonna make Memphis recommendations here. Cause I learned years ago, I had to draw a line in the sand. I had to pick a team.

[00:23:07] Ashley: I

[00:23:07] Stacy: had to pick a team. And here's the thing, Ashley, I actually have two barbecue places because you have to be able to defend who has the best sandwich, but you also have to be able to defend who has the best ribs.

[00:23:18] It's not the same place.

[00:23:22] Ashley: It's not.

[00:23:23] Stacy: And so people have too. So a lot of people might be like yeah, okay, Central's okay for the ribs, fine. But you were getting a sandwich there.

[00:23:33] Ashley: This sounds like a very, ok. This is like everybody's, it's, it sounds like this is people's okay, we're having a party and like we're all just chit-chatting and once everyone starts drinking a bit more, it starts to devolve Yes. Into where's your favorite barbecue place? Yes. And then people start getting rowdy.

[00:23:53] Exactly. Yes.

[00:23:57] Stacy: My best friend had her wedding [00:24:00] reception, not reception, but rehearsal dinner at Rendezvous in Memphis. And I don't even think you could do that in today's climate. I don't think you could pick a barbecue restaurant that family could show up to and be civil.

[00:24:16] Ashley: You'd have at least

[00:24:17] Stacy: one auntie

[00:24:18] Ashley: who's I go to Rendezvous.

[00:24:23] I love that. I was just, I'm just imagining like a family member being like, oh, getting married. Oh my God, I'm so excited. Where's oh, no. Oh no. We can't go there. No. Their chicken is dry. Yeah. Or whatever the marrying. Yeah, exactly. Why would they let them do this so then the other one we have, okay, we have three more. This one is not a barbecue place. This one is Gibson's Donuts.

[00:24:48] Yes.

[00:24:49] Stacy: Okay. A thousand times. Yes.

[00:24:52] Ashley: So Gibson's Donuts, apparently it's open 24 hours a day. Yes, girl, it is. Okay. [00:25:00]

[00:25:00] Stacy: Always has mind. Every need. Yeah. If anything could bring me back to religion, it would be Gibson's Donuts

[00:25:08] Ashley: tempts you back to evangelicalism.

[00:25:14] We have donuts. It's

[00:25:15] Stacy: like that line in walking in Memphis where she's he's she's tell me, are you a Christian child? And he's ma'am, I am tonight. We would be like that.

[00:25:26] Ashley: Oh my God. And then we have Gus's fried chicken.

[00:25:31] Stacy: See? Okay. So I was gonna slip that in because I don't know what this bullshit about the Honey Gold Chicken is, but I was gonna be like, no, it's Gus's. Okay. It's Gus's. Yes. Gus's.

[00:25:45] Ashley: Guss. And then the last one we have is Dyers mean.

[00:25:51] Stacy: Maybe it, it's not says it's okay.

[00:25:55] So here's the thing about Dyers Dyer burgers. Are these like [00:26:00] flat little hamburgers, smooshed up like little country burgers? My dad loved them. Elvis loved them. They take this little tiny scrawny little patty of beef and they deep fry it in grease. Oh. And then they put it on the bun.

[00:26:14] I know. With mayonnaise, cuz you know there wasn't enough fat content in the ground beef and the grease. So once it goes on the white bread you might lose some cuz it's absorbent. So they flab it with mayonnaise.

[00:26:33] Ashley: And you

[00:26:33] Stacy: might lose some of the, it's the original Smashburger, then they smashed it down and then they give it to you. And apparently there was a parade way before I was born, this was like in the 1960s. They opened a new location and they took the vat of grease and carried it in a procession with like horses and dancing ladies.

[00:26:56] Wow. Down the street. Dedication. Cause they didn't wanna get fresh grease. [00:27:00] They never, the whole thing was, they never clean out the grease pot. Ooh. So I leave it to you. Do you wanna try one of these burgers? See, I don't, no, I don't. I'm not, I've seen them with my eyes. I'm not interested in ingesting a diet burger with that

[00:27:14] Ashley: story.

[00:27:15] And yeah. And it says, okay, this is making me think. So the Titanic. Sank in 1912 and that's apparently when they opened Dyers. So I don't want to eat like a hundred plus year old grease. Not for me. No ma'am. Good pass. I'm fine. Hard path. Thank you. Now

[00:27:34] Stacy: you can be eating Garson's Fried chicken.

[00:27:37] Ashley: Yeah, I'm seeing, I'm going to Gus's, I'm going to Gibson's.

[00:27:41] I'm going to Paynes. Is that the place you told me? Yes ma'am. Yes. All right. And I'm gonna put a link to Paynes in the show notes cuz I guess everyone Yes. Needs don't go to these other places guys. Stacy says, absolutely not. And I trust her because I feel like we're friends now. So don't trust her. Don't trust, trust her.

[00:27:56] Don't trust these people. Don't trust Dyers Grease. [00:28:00] No, don't. That grease is No, it's old and we don't need it. If you old

[00:28:04] Stacy: legit, like old school Memphis hamburger though. It's Ernestine and Hazel's. Ernestine and Hazel's was a juke joint. And what's so cool, it still is. And what was so cool about was one of the original juke joints and it says Ernestine and Hazel's Sundry Shop.

[00:28:19] Which was not true, but that was so they could have the whore house in the back and everything. So they posed as a sundry shop. And so the existing old sign says Ernestine and Hazel's sundry shop is still there, but it's always been a cute joint and there's like bullet holes in the wall and all these great stories.

[00:28:35] Nice, nice. And they have, yeah, and they have a burger that they, I think it's called the Soul Burger. I feel like it's the Soul Burger cuz Memphis Soul, but it's yeah. It also is 24 hours, so you can walk in there at three in the morning, God help you if you're downtown at three in the morning in Memphis and you're walking in on Hazel.

[00:28:51] But I've done

[00:28:52] Ashley: it and the burgers,

[00:28:56] Stacy: ah, real good. A soul burger and a cold beer at [00:29:00] three in the morning. You're all set.

[00:29:02] Ashley: Yeah. I feel like if I'm walking around first of all, how did I get to Memphis? I don't know, but I feel like if I'm there at 3:00 AM that's what I want. Yeah. Is a burger and a beer, please.

[00:29:12] Yep. Sounds great. In

[00:29:15] Stacy: a historic Duke joint.

[00:29:16] Ashley: Yes. Yeah. And a drew joint with some bullet holes that probably have some awesome stories. Attaches to it, that sounds awesome to me. This has been an amazing food tour of Memphis, everybody. And I'm so excited. Get down to Memphis and go to all these places.

[00:29:32] Ernestine, hazels and Paynes and on Gibsons we're going. All right. This is a part of the show where I'm gonna plug myself real quick. So if you guys like this show, you can keep listening to it. That's great. You can also give me a five-star rating on whatever platform you listen to us.

[00:29:48] You can follow me on, online socials at Dime With The Divine on Instagram. I'm Dime With The Divine on Facebook, and I think I'm on TikTok, and I think I finally figured out how to use it a bit. So you can [00:30:00] check that out. And if you have any questions or anything you want to email me email me at d with the divine pod@gmail.com.

[00:30:07] And that's that part. Okay. So now we're gonna go to our tea time where we're just gonna learn something. And today what we're gonna learn about is these Granny women of the South. So it's I had read about this happening a lot. I read about, A while ago, granny midwives, like which were also a lot of those times it was like predominantly in like black communities because people couldn't afford to go to the hospitals or there, were all sorts of issues. But then I also found they weren't, yeah, they weren't

[00:30:40] Stacy: allowed to go to the hospitals is what it was.

[00:30:42] Ashley: Exactly.

[00:30:43] Yeah. There is that too. And all these different things. But then I also found about in general granny women. So this is also really this is a really popular thing in Appalachia. Yes. Yes. So this is a quote from a book and I put [00:31:00] this, all these quotes in the show notes. So granny women were per two, can I never say this word?

[00:31:04] Pur Two. They were there to be healers and midwives in southern Appalachia, and the Ozarks claimed by a few academics as practicing from the 1880s to the 1930s. They were theorized to be usually elder women in the community and may have been the only practitioners of healthcare in poor rural areas of southern Appalachia.

[00:31:26] They often, they were often thought not to have expected or received payment and were respected as authorities on herbal healing and childbirth and there's a bunch of different books written about them too yeah. Yeah. So they were usually, like we said, the older women of the community, but usually the knowledge had been passed down through generations.

[00:31:48] Yes. Yes. And then most of these women had a lot of knowledge about like herbs and also when it came to childbirth and things like that. And some [00:32:00] of these areas were very poor or they were also in the mountains, so it was hard to get to the nearest town, like big town or hospital. So these places really relied on these people.

[00:32:13] Stacy: Yeah. Yeah. I can tell you about three categories of those women. Yes. So if we're gonna divide them by region, so I'll start with Memphis, cuz this is where I'm from. And where my fa where my. The most recent century of my family are from here, but before that they were in Southern Appalachia and in the Ozarks, depends on which side of my family we're talking about.

[00:32:35] And in Memphis, Memphis is also known as Mojo City Memphis. Is even today 70% black. It was where cotton was traded, right? So it was, and it was a union stronghold during the Civil War. So if you look at Memphis' history, Memphis history, I've heard many people say Memphis history is black history, or Black history is Memphis history.

[00:32:54] Because Beale Street was the first commercial strip for African Americans in the country after the [00:33:00] war. Yeah. Even starting before the war heard. Yeah. So Beale Street even predates Harlem and everything. So we have some really amazing, one of my favorite things to encourage people to do here.

[00:33:09] It's not just go to the Civil Rights Museum, which is great, but also really research what was going on in the 1850s and sixties and seventies, cuz it's just a fascinating history. Of black America really getting a foothold into having a commercial presence. But when that was happening, hospitals were not available.

[00:33:27] So Memphis was not rural by any stretch of the imagination. Memphis was the capital of this side of the south. Like Atlanta was the capital over there and like the gone with the wind situation kinda thing. And then over here on the Mississippi River, the Mark Twain situation, just use like pop culture references, help people help all y'all Yankees, like picture geography.

[00:33:49] Okay. So over here

[00:33:50] Ashley: We're like, it's helping me. Yeah. It's like Mark

[00:33:52] Stacy: Twain, the river. All that stuff. And then over in Atlanta, it was more rich people. Memphis [00:34:00] wasn't so much mansions and oh, cullet. It wasn't, we don't have the big, it wasn't like that. It wasn't rural.

[00:34:06] It was like a dirty, busy city. Okay? So picture that it's either half, half or black majority. And so it's always had this very strong black culture presence. And so women who were and who are herbal healers here, were almost always black women. And because of the Trail of Tears, there weren't a lot of all the indigenous women had been, mo had been run out.

[00:34:27] So we really worked down, we have been a tr Tri-Racial Society and we moved into being basically a biracial society during those years. So the black women very much were healers. Now if we look at Ozarks and Appalachia, those are two very far flown places. These people weren't talking to each other.

[00:34:44] Cause they couldn't, they were either completely illiterate or they were just so remote that they wouldn't even know each other typically unless they're family. But these are hill folk and hill folk. Were not just white, but like a very particular variety of white people, which were mostly scotch Irish.

[00:34:59] Yes. So they [00:35:00] came from these traditions of Scotland and all these traditions of the fairy folk and scottish tradition and just all those things like celebrating Beltane and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And they were more in touch with indigenous people. So the women are talking all three of these groups, one thing they share in common is poverty and lack of access to services.

[00:35:22] Yeah. And so they did share information. I'm not saying there's not horrific racism that we can't even imagine in today's day and age. Like unforgivably bad, however. When people need to survive and when they need to, save their relatives from a horrible disease or rash or fever, they start asking each other questions and suddenly, yeah.

[00:35:43] Think a lot of the racism stuff disappears when they're like, please, is there any soup I can use? Just please. Yeah.

[00:35:49] Ashley: They're like, I could hate you for your color, or I could die or we

[00:35:52] Stacy: could actually just develop a human connection for five minutes. Yeah. Oh, people, historic people are so gross.

[00:35:58] But anyway, so they were [00:36:00] sharing recipes and that's how we get a lot of these granny women. I'm descended from granny women in the Ozarks. There was, I know of at least one possibly a second candidate, but I know of one for sure who was like straight out of a storybook. She was called Granny Woods because she lived in the woods and her name was Eliza, but hardly anybody knew that.

[00:36:21] But Granny Woods was this old widow woman who lived in a cabin. She raised one of my cousins basically as a, I don't know, just like a, almost like a Cinderella type character. She was very cruel to her and made her just do all the labor around the house, around the cabin. But they provided all the medical remedies for the whole region.

[00:36:41] People came from miles around.

[00:36:44] Ashley: Wow. It's so interesting the way people survived when they were like this is the only thing we can do. We don't have a choice. Like we all have to rely on each other in this situation. And I love how it is [00:37:00] usually women, like yes, women are, yes, women are usually the keepers of the knowledge.

[00:37:05] Yes. In the, in these cases it's not, it's not men, it's always women who are like the ones going. And I think it has, I personally think it has a lot to do too with the danger of being a woman in terms of like childbirth. And a lot of it I feel like has to do with the danger of how men treat women if they aren't okay to do stuff.

[00:37:27] Okay. What I mean is like a for instance, and this happened all over the world. Women who got pregnant and they couldn't be pregnant. It was like, we can't, I can't have this baby. There was always healers and quote unquote people call them witches and things to help people not be pregnant because they knew that these women would face maybe incredible violence. You'd be ostracized if they had a baby or if they were known to be pregnant. I just love how women were just like, oh, we're gonna fix this. Like throughout Yeah. Throughout centuries. Yeah. They just kept fixing it and then they just [00:38:00] knew, you know it, it's tough out here for the women folk, so it is, we're gonna, yeah, we're gonna help.

[00:38:07] And then what? Childbearing is super dangerous. Yes. If you really think about it. And so there had to be somebody to know what we do if this woman starts bleeding too much, if the baby is breached, if it's been 42 weeks and she hasn't had it yet, like we gotta know what tea for her to drink and what earth Yes.

[00:38:25] To rub on her and you know how to do it. It's crazy. I just love,

[00:38:28] Stacy: There was like layers of danger because then there's danger in healing them. Because if you heal somebody like you, there could I love in movies when they actually, I feel, it seems to me like accurately depicted where there's like a sick male child.

[00:38:42] They call in a female doctor or healer and she comes in and she heals him. But then the priest comes in and says, how did you do that? That is magic. That is witchcraft. And then this poor woman's carted off and burned at the stake. And I'll be watching a show like that and be like,

[00:38:56] Ashley: yeah, show how, who helped,[00:39:00] seriously.

[00:39:01] And it happened a lot. Which one interesting thing too, and you just brought this up about a lot of these people being like Scott Irish. They also, it was very, at that time in these areas, it was very entwined with the local religion. So in some cases, What I read from these different accounts, it's if a, if one of these, quote granny healers took it a little too far, then she was a witch.

[00:39:25] But if she was just like going to church and being like, chill about it, and Yes, not, then it was like, oh yeah, she's just really special.

[00:39:33] Stacy: Yes. It's still like that in Memphis. I read tarot at a hoodoo shop. It is it is, it's a space where, They sell, we sell Herb. I say we, it's not my store, I just am the reader.

[00:39:47] But they sell herbs and they sell candles and they sell other, remedies. And you can also, you can get things that lean more towards the witchcraft. If I were to use the 2023 definition of witchcraft as like you'll find on [00:40:00] TikTok, which is more like experimenting with all this stuff.

[00:40:03] But here, they would not call that witchcraft. They would just call that working like either root work or just doing the work. Just working. It's just called working or we're not gonna call it anything weird, and it's only when you start to practice what they'll call black magic, which is when you're hexing someone, if you're actually putting some kind of a, working on them that's supposed to keep them away from your lover, it's supposed to, make them lose their court case.

[00:40:28] Those kinds of quote unquote hexes, you're much more likely to be called a witch. A witch doctor, or witchcraft, or devil worship. If you're doing something that adversely. Affects someone or is meant to anyway. How's that intent? Yeah. But if you're doing a goddess bath or if you're blessing a baby or if you're praying for rain or something like that, and actually a lot of people use the psalms they actually use the Bible as spells. So I guess what I'm getting at is what a lot of people. Today [00:41:00] on places like TikTok are calling witchcraft or Folk Magic is not what the actual practitioners are calling it. They're doing things that are descended directly from either Celtic and Scottish traditions or African traditional religions or both.

[00:41:14] And then they've woven it into Christianity to be like, see, we're just regular Christian ladies, just like y'all. We're just burning some candles and stuff. That's all.

[00:41:23] Ashley: Exactly. I love it. They were just probably just cute little women. It's fine. Don't come over here at cabinet

[00:41:34] Stacy: level. What do you mean?

[00:41:36] It's not,

[00:41:38] Ashley: I'm not running around naked under the full moon. It's fine. Oh.

[00:41:44] Stacy: Yeah, our Bibles right here.

[00:41:47] Ashley: I know. Yeah. Also, I love this, so everything again, I'm just reemphasizing everything you just said. These women were part healers, part witch, and part profit test. [00:42:00] They would oh, they also had really important They were also very important to the whole community cuz they didn't just do cool witchcrafty shit and like cool workings.

[00:42:09] They also, they, like we just talked about, they're delivering babies. They're helping people who were sick. Again, these people are living in areas where they're poor and also isolated from big city hospitals or doctors. They may have a local doctor but maybe not, a big, a bigger whatever you would call in the past, like a bigger medical kind of system.

[00:42:29] They don't have that or they don't have access to get there quickly if somebody's actually really sick. So they would also tend to people who are dying. That was part of their job. They were some of the first people. After the indigenous people to start employing the different herbs in Appalachia.

[00:42:48] And they, like you said, Stacy already, they learned some from the indigenous people, but they also brought a lot of that Scott Irish knowledge that they had. And were like, okay, what's similar to everything that [00:43:00] we had there?

[00:43:00] Stacy: Exactly. We used to, St. John's wart or whatever St.

[00:43:04] John's Wart grocery example. But they would know of a plant and they would describe it and be like, we need something for rheumatism. We used to smoke this thing. Yes. We used to rub this on the skin. Do you have anything like that? So they already have basic knowledge, but they're on a new landmass with completely different native

[00:43:20] plants.

[00:43:21] Ashley: Exactly. So they started to confer with the other AR groups when they were, not fighting. They would be like, Hey, you indigenous person, did you guys use this? Indigenous People were like we actually use this. They're like, that works. And they would just do whatever worked.

[00:43:35] Yeah. And then the indigenous people of that area were the Cherokee and the Choctaw people. That's in a lot of these. Yeah. In the, in Appalachia. Appalachia's big, like I didn't

[00:43:46] Stacy: realize. Yes. It's huge. It was all the way up to Pennsylvania. It's not just the southern thing, that's why they say Southern Appalachia.

[00:43:51] That's when you're getting into like Kentucky and Tennessee, the lower foothills of the Yes.

[00:43:56] Ashley: Mountain. Yeah. Yes. And I I've [00:44:00] mentioned this before in a different episode. I watch a lot of Outlander. I love that lander. Yes. That's exactly

[00:44:05] Stacy: who I was talking about. When Claire goes to help that little boy, I don't remember what season it was.

[00:44:10] She helped this kid and then they go Anyway,

[00:44:13] Ashley: love that show. Exactly. And then when they like kidnapped her because they, cuz she was helping women, if they didn't wanna have a kid, she's oh, this is what you do if you don't wanna get pregnant. And they're like, which yes. I'm like,

[00:44:26] Stacy: alone, which, and that's exactly what they would've done.

[00:44:29] Ashley: Yeah, I know. She's I literally just want women to have agency over their own bodies. And they're like, what? Which , like

[00:44:40] she's supposed to be pregnant all the time. Also, okay. Outlander real quick. Outlander. To me. And if you read a lot of accounts, like it's kinda like the ru like of course it's like this beautiful romantic story and the main characters are all gorgeous people. But like when you see them get to [00:45:00] Appalachia, the struggles they're going through are very real.

[00:45:03] It's not easy out here. When you are like moved, they like settled in America. They're dealing with all this stuff. Obviously they're having issues with the indigenous people cuz the indigenous people are like, Jesus Christ, why are you people coming Exactly. And messing our life up. Yeah.

[00:45:20] Yeah. They're not too happy. And we all understand why. So it's fair. Yeah. It's it's very though like you do get a sense of what it was for these people and like why I feel like when I read about and you hear about Southern Appalachian people are so tough. I'm like, this is why I was like, oh, for sure.

[00:45:39] Yeah. They're like not a group of people to be fucked with. They're like, no, we've been dealing with this shit for centuries.

[00:45:45] Stacy: There are wild boar outside. There are rattles in the house. There are no hospitals. Like,

[00:45:53] Ashley: where do I even start?

[00:45:55] Stacy: Every single thing is hard. Going to the bathroom is [00:46:00] terrifying.

[00:46:00] Everything is terrifying all the time. 24 7. Just trying stay alive and have food to eat.

[00:46:09] Ashley: Oh my God. I'm like, they're in the mountains. They all gotta get together and make candles every day. Cause there's so many lights, candles.

[00:46:24] Damn. It's like a lot of time these people were illiterate because they didn't have, the resources and things for having a strong educational system at the time. So think about this, that these women, these granny healers are memoing all this shit. They just, they know offhand they don't have the herbal Academy online that they can go look up, what this is for. They just know they have to memorize everything and then pass down all of this information to other people so that their generations can survive like these [00:47:00] women. Were resourceful as fuck.

[00:47:03] Stacy: Like they were good. Oh yeah. Just superheroes, like just absolute superheroes. And then take that and multiply it times 70 bazillion times for the enslaved women who only can wander, first of all, they can't talk to anyone unless maybe they're allowed to talk to others in like the neighboring land plantations.

[00:47:21] But then you've got all you've got, maybe you don't know any indigenous people who are gonna teach you anything. And the white people in the house don't know shit. So you basically have to just wander around and munch on a bunch of herbs when you do have five minutes to go explore. Yes.

[00:47:35] And start to find things that might help with moisturizing your skin, a rash, a fever, childbirth. Yes. And you're just figuring it out with what's there on the land you're permitted to be on. Yes. It's so limiting as to be like, yes. Mind blowing. I feel like I would just die of terror, frustration, ignorance.

[00:47:58] I would just lay down and die. [00:48:00] And to think that people live their whole lives, solving problems, this unsolvable is just too much to even imagine.

[00:48:06] Ashley: It's too much. Yeah. It's it's so great. It's bad enough to be like poor and sick and or your family member sick and you dunno what to do, but then you're also poor a slave and you're sick, imprisoned.

[00:48:21] Literally, you can do what you'd like. Like it's just, it's too much. It's just, it was rough out here for everybody. Yes. Yeah.

[00:48:28] Stacy: These people are all heroes. I don't care if they're assholes, they're heroes. Everyone was a hero. Period. Yes. Period.

[00:48:37] Ashley: They're doing a lot. And and then we even talked about on a previous episode too, how a lot of not a lot of, but the slaves who could, would find seeds and they would bring them over.

[00:48:49] That's why we have o okra in the south. It's not native. Yeah, it's not native. But they brought it cuz they were like, we really this stuff we're getting kidnapped. Yeah. Let's see what we can do.[00:49:00]

[00:49:00] Stacy: They believe that people braided it into their hair. Oh, isn't that amazing?

[00:49:05] Ashley: Yeah's amazing.

[00:49:06] I

[00:49:06] Stacy: can't prove that They can't prove it. They don't know how they brought it over, the clothes might have been, I've been allowed. Certainly bags are not allowed. So how do you bring something, it's I think that one of the theories is that maybe women braid it again, women, it's always women's solving, saving the day.

[00:49:23] Yeah, I knew and they knew the plants were gonna be a major part of their survival and their, it's just incredible. Yeah.

[00:49:29] Ashley: It's really, oh my God, I know. It's too much. It's too much. These ancestors, they really did the best they could. Let's, so what else was I gonna say about these wonderful people that we haven't said?

[00:49:42] Just that they're awesome. Mostly I'm just trying to find if there's any really good quotes we got.

[00:49:46] Stacy: This is why I feel so strongly about ancestor veneration. Cause I just feel like, first of all, it's other than modern Americans and really anyone from a modern western society has lost touch with this.

[00:49:59] But [00:50:00] otherwise, it is a pretty universal practice. Human beings have always generated their ancestors and recognize that because of how time passes and how we get new technologies and new abilities, that we always have it better off than they did, yes. At any given point in time, even in the 15 hundreds, they have it better off than in the nine hundreds.

[00:50:18] Like it just always gets a little bit better. Yes. And so it's if you're really thinking about and having conversations like we're having about how hard it was for the people who made our lives possible then it's hard not to be grateful and want to spend some time like spiritually meditating on

[00:50:33] Ashley: that.

[00:50:34] I think about that like some, I sometimes get into these things that I'm like, how is everybody not. Not insanely amazed by this. And that's one of my things I think about like people, like you're talking about, you have an ancestor who's a Grandy woman and I think of my ancestors and what they must have dealt with.

[00:50:55] And I'm just like, Jesus Christ. Thank you. Yeah, that's ok. I [00:51:00] can't imagine. And I think it's even more, you feel it sometimes as a woman or as a femme person. I really think you can think of the other women in your history, in your life. And I'm not saying not men too, but I'm just saying people who went through incredibly difficult stuff and the farther back, like you're saying, the farther back it was probably worse.

[00:51:23] Yes. And I feel that way too. For queer people, it's the same thing. , we all have queer ancestors. Who like, maybe were not able to be who they were and it's like, how difficult was it for them? But they still lived so we could live.

[00:51:36] And it's just thank you for doing that. Yes. Like I know. That sucked.

[00:51:40] Stacy: Appreciate. Yeah. Yeah. It makes me not wanna complain about anything in my life. That's why I say I'm such a happy person. Cuz I really feel like, yeah. I just feel like in comparison, nothing I'm going through. Even all the stupid tech issues I had to deal with today that got me frustrated are nothing.

[00:51:57] They're just literally nothing. I'm [00:52:00] in this comfortable house. I have toilet paper's been invented. It's just, everything's great. It's great.

[00:52:06] Ashley: It's great. I know. Can I tell you something really weird that I think about sometimes? Yes. Okay. I think about like, When people like had their period back in the day, like I get my period at work, I have period products.

[00:52:23] I'm able to afford that. And I'm still like, Ugh, this is gross. This is the worst thing. Effort. Yeah. This is nasty. I don't really wanna deal with this right now. I'm at work. I'd rather be on my couch laying down like, but I'm like, damn. Like my ancestors just got their period when maybe they were just like cooking all day for their family or like working in a field.

[00:52:42] And they just got their period and had to do, I'm like, how did they deal with that? I'm literally at work in an air conditioned building with period with pads and I'm like, oh, I'm so selfish.

[00:52:55] Stacy: You know what I think to build on that? Yes. I'm like, I'm gonna, yes. And [00:53:00] that, yes. Yes. And I remember that.

[00:53:02] I'm lucky to be getting my period. Because I read somewhere, this is a little fact that blew my brains out, which was that women like pre 18th, 19th century might only get five or six periods in a lifetime. And I was like, what? Why? Because they're always pregnant, that's why.

[00:53:25] Ashley: Oh, and then they're lactating.

[00:53:27] Stacy: I know, right? See, I see your mind being blown. My brain melted when I heard that. That's crazy. Yeah. So basically you start, oh no, you start getting raped when you're a teenager because duh, that's the world we live in. So you're already damn raped when you're like 13, 14. So you end up pregnant by 14, 15, then you're pregnant again.

[00:53:47] Then you're pregnant again. Then maybe you're not for three years, but you're lactating. So periods were super rare in ancient times, and apparently that's something that scientists have had to wrap their minds around is that women now get their periods every [00:54:00] month for 30 years or something, whereas before they didn't.

[00:54:05] So it's

[00:54:05] Ashley: That's so crazy. Yeah. Damn. And you think that goes into a lot of other things cuz there's been a lot of studies too on yeah, they call like women who are like 35 oh, they're what do they call geriatric, like birthing people? Yes. But now they said, okay, actually those studies that say it's 35 is a cutoff was done in like the 16 hundreds on a bunch of women who lived in like poor areas of France.

[00:54:37] And it was like, oh God, really? Yeah. It was like, and they were like 35 is it? But first of all, we don't know what they were eating. We don't know how many kids they had. We don't know what their health was like. So I don't know how it, like 400 years ago, we're still basing geriatric maternal age on one study.

[00:54:54] Stacy: Oh my God, the nutrition alone would be so much better now. Yes. It's so different. Completely [00:55:00] different.

[00:55:00] Ashley: Yeah. And so that's why now they haven't done anything about it, but a lot of the newer studies are trying to tell people like, actually it's like 40 when it really drops off. But they're like, even at 40, you're still all right for a couple years.

[00:55:14] If you really wanna have a child. But yeah, Janet was just

[00:55:17] Stacy: Jackson. I feel like Janet was like 50 something when she just had that baby. She was like, yeah, I think

[00:55:22] Ashley: she was, I think she was 50. Janet was fine. Janet. Yeah. Janet's fine. Look, if Janet can do it, you can do it. That's right. Whatever makes you happy.

[00:55:32] Yeah. The other thing, oh, the other one important thing I saw here is that because the, because Appalachia is mountainous, this is the Appalachian Mountains is what we're talking about. That actually. Physicians would charge more to go there. Oh. Because it was harder to get to these people in these different Appalachian towns. So most of the families ended up not even if they could afford it, now they're being upcharge and it would be worse for them. [00:56:00] So another reason they couldn't deal with that. We

[00:56:03] Stacy: haven't talked about my southern gothic oracle deck, but what, you know that about it, that whole oracle is sure.

[00:56:09] I just, you reminded me. It's a good segue cause the, each card in the deck is based on some aspect of southern folklore or practice here. Oh, one of the cards is the ax and the ax card represents lessening or anything being reduced. So when you pull it in a reading, it's oh, you might read, you might pull a card about strength, but you, if you pull the AX card, it's it's lessened that the meaning of that card, like maybe not so much strength.

[00:56:36] Oh, and but the reason I did that card, and you'll read about this in the booklet that comes with the deck, is because of Appalachian's what we now, scholars fancy call it sympathetic magic, but that's not what they called it back then. They just thought, these were actual beliefs.

[00:56:50] Some, they might have called them superstitions on their worst day, but they really believed this stuff, right? Acts, an ax used to be put under the mattress of a laboring woman to cut the pain [00:57:00] in half. Oh, because objects were believed to have spirits. This is a big thing that comes from like Scottish magic.

[00:57:07] Like the Faye folk and everything. Yeah. Everything has a spirit. It's animism, which comes from the British Isles. It's a pre-Christian belief. Yeah. And it's something that I really feel strongly about that that, for me it's living things, plants, bodies of water. I try and recognize the spirit that lives in all of those things.

[00:57:23] But it was really extended in the old days to even objects. Even I know this thing has a spirit. I'm holding my cell phone. That's definitely alive. But, they're looking at an axe and saying, what is the axe? His job? The AXS job is cutting things. And so maybe the spirit of that axe will cut my pain in half.

[00:57:42] So that's an old Southern superstition is that objects, yeah. Carry the spirit. But yeah, so in Appalachia, they had things like that for pain that weren't just like you and I think were spending time talking about the really clever and sensible things that these women were doing. Like they figured out that yarro [00:58:00] root would really help.

[00:58:01] Our yaro flower would help with something, and that's awesome. And yes, they did do that, but on the other hand, they also had these more spiritual, more superstitious practices where they were doing things like ambulances and talismans and everyday objects to bring forth magic to make it better.

[00:58:16] Because you're right, the doctors were not coming to your

[00:58:19] Ashley: door at all. Yeah. Yeah. And, I love how they were just super practical about it. They're like, yeah, cut. We're gonna cut the pain in half. Duh. Yeah. This makes perfect sense. And I'm like you're right. Yeah. And also them And it, yeah.

[00:58:34] In addition to doing all, like we said, just all that cool shit, like with all this herbalism, they also did charms and they did ambulance. And if somebody was like my husband won't stay at home, he's out here philandering. They would make a little something to help your husband stay at home, or if you couldn't get pregnant or you didn't wanna get pregnant or, you wanted, a little love charm, they would do this kind of stuff all the time. It's pretty, and they knew what to do. They knew what to say and they had [00:59:00] spells and rituals. Yeah. In addition to doing like more quote unquote professional stuff, they did all that stuff too.

[00:59:06] Yeah. This is what, yeah, this is how people got along and it really helped them out. So I just love these women. I think they're really cool. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And me too. Everybody get a chance? Yes. Get a chance to read more about 'em. I put some links in the show notes. Okay. So now we're gonna have a story time.

[00:59:25] Oh. And today's Yes. It's very exciting. Today's story is one and I was like, Ooh, what? So there's a podcast it's called this Southern Gothic podcast. And they tell different stories. And I found this story on there. I put a link to it and I love it. And it's in Tennessee, so I was like, oh, perfect.

[00:59:46] We're going with the Tennessee theme. So this is a story. The Bell Witch. Have you heard of the Bell Witch? You gotta buy my deck. Okay. I do have to get your deck. I don't have it. I know you just

[00:59:59] Stacy: told me you [01:00:00] don't have it

[01:00:00] Ashley: because there's a Bell Witch card. Yes. I never heard this story, but I actually quite liked it.

[01:00:08] Stacy: Yeah, good. And it goes along, along right with what we've been talking about. So go,

[01:00:13] Ashley: Okay. So in the early 18 hundreds, this guy John Bell, he moved with his family from North Carolina to Red River, Tennessee, which is now Adams, Tennessee.

[01:00:25] His family bought some land and they, it was, everything was really good. John Bell became the elder of the church there and his wife, he came there with four kids and then he had three more kids when he was there. Everybody was in a good mood. Everybody enjoyed living where they were living.

[01:00:41] No, I'll believe that part. I know it probably wasn't that

[01:00:44] nobody

[01:00:45] Stacy: was in a good mood in the 18th century in Tennessee. Literally nobody,

[01:00:49] Ashley: even, nobody

[01:00:55] Stacy: What idiot wrote that?

[01:00:57] Ashley: Everybody was in a bad mood all. [01:01:00] Have

[01:01:00] Stacy: you seen an 18th century Tennessee cabin? Please continue.

[01:01:07] Ashley: Okay. So they were probably not in that creative a mood cause they were living in the log cabin.

[01:01:13] Stacy: Everyone's angry, everyone's menstruating all over their inner thighs. Everyone's mad.

[01:01:20] Ashley: Oh God. They have to wash the same rag every day. They're eating babies. Had every day. No. You know how babies, and you know how kids always have like random fevers?

[01:01:33] I think that was just the 18 hundreds. It's like everyone had a fever all the time. All the time. And. And the, and always like the remedy for everybody is to be laying in bed. And I'm like, I don't know if that was good.

[01:01:47] Stacy: With a, with an ax. With an ax, ginger,

[01:01:55] Ashley: ginger. Oh my

[01:01:59] Stacy: God, [01:02:00] they have fuck all is what they have.

[01:02:04] Ashley: So everybody was in a bad mood. They were all probably sleeping in one room. Yes. Yes. Also that because yeah, cuz it's just awkward. And I don't know when their parents could have all these babies and have all this sex cause right there, but whatever.

[01:02:17] So in 1817, our man, John, the head of the household here, he was out checking his crops and he saw this weird ass animal and he said it had the body of a dog and the head of a rabbit. So he shot at it, but it disappeared. So fine. He went home and telling his wife Lucy. He's I saw some weird shit outside.

[01:02:38] And she's oh really? Blah, blah, blah. Sit down, eat your lima beans. So eat the lima beans. And then they heard someone's beating on the door of their cabin.

[01:02:47] So this kept going on all night. Now the kids went to bed and they said that they heard rats eating at their bedpost, but they would get up and look and there was no [01:03:00] rats. They also felt like the sheets kept getting taken off them all night. Then they started to hear a weird voice. And it was like an old, it was like an old woman's voice that was talking and having full on conversations with people in the house.

[01:03:14] Apparently this entity just kept on with its fuckery. And then this entity also really hated Betsy. She's one of the daughters and, oh, yeah. It really didn't, yeah, it really didn't like Betsy. I don't know what that did. Didn't like

[01:03:25] Stacy: John. Didn't like Betsy. That's

[01:03:27] Ashley: right. Yeah. Oh yeah. It really hated John.

[01:03:29] Yeah. So first of all, I hate John. Betsy was saying that the entity

[01:03:36] Stacy: I just do, he's not a sympathetic character.

[01:03:41] Ashley: No, he's not. John. I don't know what John is out here doing. So Betsy. Betsy was saying that it would pull her hair and it would leave welts and stuff. So he told his neighbor, his friend James Johnson, he's [01:04:00] James, this crazy shit's going on at my house.

[01:04:02] And James bet okay, I'm coming over my wife and we'll sleep over. And see what's going on. So they slept over and they started experiencing all of this weird shit too. And then apparently one in the middle of the night, James got up and said, which for sure was just Betsy. Yes,

[01:04:19] Stacy: Betsy's in all this, Betsy's I love this story and this is my whole life.

[01:04:26] Ashley: I know Betsy, it gets weirder with Betsy. So Ja Johnston, apparently he, James, he got up and said, in the name of the ward, who are you and what do you want? He got no answer. And then apparently the noises stopped. I don't know, I guess you just had to ask the entity what they wanted and then they got mad.

[01:04:41] Anyway, apparently after James Johnston stayed over, he had a big fucking mouth cuz he went and told everybody about it. Oh yeah. And James is not your friend. If you need to keep a secret about the witch in your house. Yes, [01:05:00] James, I don't know what your problem is. So then apparently, I don't know, and this goes on, we talk about this later on, how this may not be true, but the story goes, it.

[01:05:11] Andrew Jackson when he still was not like Andrew Jackson, the president, he was just like a military commander. He apparently came over the house to check it out. Apparently on their way there, like on the way I think they lived, I don't know, on the way to the, their house, like the road there.

[01:05:28] The horses stopped at one point and they wouldn't keep going. Yeah. And then Jackson. Yeah, Jackson said by the eternal boys. That must be the bell witch. And then they heard a voice say that they could keep going, that they could proceed, and all of a sudden the horses started to walk again. Okay.

[01:05:46] Stacy: My theory on that, if those horses could detect evil spirits, then they wouldn't have been with Andrew Jackson.

[01:05:52] But please come down.

[01:05:57] Ashley: That's such a good point. Andrew Jackson's the [01:06:00] devil. These Duke,

[01:06:05] Andrew Jackson. You guys if anybody doesn't know why Andrew Jackson's a bad man, Google it. Yeah, Google it. And manifest destiny. Like he's a horrible human person. And I hope he just, and if these horses

[01:06:17] Stacy: weren't picking up on that and they're just totally fine with all that bad juju, they're just like, yeah, let's go down the countryside.

[01:06:23] Yeah. I don't know why they were stopping, but it wasn't because, yeah,

[01:06:26] Ashley: go on. Yeah. He's a bastard. So all of a sudden, okay, so the horses started going then Jackson and his men were at the house and they were chilling and I guess they were eating with the Bell family.

[01:06:39] All of a sudden, one of the men was saying, haha, I'm the witch tamer, blah, blah, blah. He was just talking a big game. Oh, yeah. And then apparently he was like taunting the entity, being probably being like, oh, you're a witch. Come out and fight me. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, and then all of a sudden he started getting the shit beat out of him.

[01:06:59] Oh, that's [01:07:00] good. Yes.

[01:07:03] Stacy: I dunno. Sorry. Here's my thing. I put the bell witch in my work as a symbol, cuz again, it's an oracle deck and it has to serve a purpose, right? So you need to draw this card and not just enjoy the story, but you need to draw the card and get your own message from it. Cause it's a deck, right?

[01:07:17] Used for divination. So what is the bell witch represents? She represents blame and scapegoating because her story is so inconsistent with any Halfway believable paranormal story because they call her the bell witch, but then she's really being described as more of a shape shifter. But then it's no, she was a woman.

[01:07:36] Her name was Kate, and she stole my shoes. And then it's, it was just like, it was this, oh, she's a wolf. That bitch is a wolf. I saw her and she was a raven, and so then it's like y'all are just blaming each other in this town. For shit. And every time shit goes down, oh, it was the bell witch who lives in the cage.

[01:07:58] And it was just a good way of blaming [01:08:00] somebody else and not taking any responsibility for your own actions. So that's what she represents in my day. Yeah.

[01:08:07] Ashley: It makes sense because this story is very like weird and inconsistent. It's, and it

[01:08:12] Stacy: goes on for like decades and it's still going on and it's still a place that you can go to.

[01:08:17] And there's a bell witch cave and there's tourist shops and there's t-shirts and there's all this stuff based on this story that's, full of holes. It's like you have so many ghosts in Tennessee and so many great stories and you're gonna take this story that was so obviously just this weird.

[01:08:32] Family and there's a series of scapegoating stories, and now it's a Tennessee legend come on.

[01:08:40] Ashley: Yeah. It's, yeah. So it gets, like you're saying, it gets weirder and weirder okay. Andrew Jackson went there with his peoples, and then they all tried to stay the night, but like by the time Andrew Jackson got up, like all his men were like in town, because they're like, we're not staying in this house.

[01:08:59] You're outta your mind. [01:09:00] We're afraid of the Bell witch or Betsy, whichever one it ends up being. Yeah. So yeah, no, so then, The entity kept fucking with the family, and especially Betsy. Until Betsy, especially Bey decides, especially Betsy. Oh yeah. Betsy decided to get married, but the entity told Betsy that she shouldn't get married and then Betsy decided not to get married to the guy and then all the problems stop.

[01:09:26] So here's the thing. Betsy probably just didn't like this guy as much as she thought she did. And it's fine. Yeah. Say, and whenever Betsy

[01:09:32] Stacy: say Bey didn't like something, she blamed Kate. Yeah. The bell witch, Kate says, it was like me and my, it is like me and Herman, I've done this, I've been this person.

[01:09:42] I'd be like, Herman says, it's not dinner time.

[01:09:45] Ashley: Exactly. It's really weird. I understand. Exactly. And like we said before, hated Betsy and it hated John the dad. John's health began to decline. He started developing some like facial twitching [01:10:00] and his mouth started moving around, but they think it may have been, I think they said like Bell's Palsy or something.

[01:10:05] Yeah, actually that had happened to him, but it hadn't been diagnosed, they hadn't known that yet. So in the December 20th, 1820, John Bell died. Now this is again where it gets fucking weird. So they said that they were like cleaning out the house and stuff, and they found a, like little container of dark liquid, but nobody knew where it can come from.

[01:10:27] So one of the sons had fed it to the cat and then apparently they fed, the cat died. First of all, cat died. Why you cat died? Yeah. Yeah. Why are you feeding anybody a random dark liquid that you found? Just weird. Don't do that. Yeah,

[01:10:45] just throw away. Why did you do that? And so then after that happened, apparently somebody in the family, I don't know who, but somebody heard the voice say, I have old Jack, a big dose of that last night that fixed [01:11:00] him. So now she's confessing the bell witch to the murder. Whatever. So now they said after John Bell died, everything calmed down a little bit.

[01:11:09] The entity told the widow bell. So this is Lucy Bell, the wife, that it would leave it, in 1821, but it would be back in seven years. Exactly. And then guess what? Seven years later, here comes the entity. What? Yeah. Talking to, apparently this time it was talking to John Junior about course Christianity.

[01:11:28] Yeah, of course. Why not? Philosophy and gave him predictions about the American Civil War and other future events. So she also is a prophetess. That's cool. It's Claire from Outlander.

[01:11:43] Stacy: Exactly. It's just Claire. She's a

[01:11:45] Ashley: traveler. What if it's like the bell witch is literally just Claire from out?

[01:11:54] Stacy: That would be amazing.

[01:11:56] God,

[01:11:58] Ashley: that's awesome. I [01:12:00] swear. Trying to heal people from Outlander. Oh God, that's so funny. So then apparently the spirit left again and it said it would come back in 107 years to speak to the most direct descendant of John Bell. In 1931 the most direct descendant was James Morrie Bell. And he started to write a book, but then he died in 1945, so we don't know if it came back and talked to him or not.

[01:12:25] So now we talk about who was a bell witch. We don't know. So some people were like maybe it's an indigenous spirit, because there was a lot of struggles with the settlers there. And, fighting. Or they were like, maybe it was Kate. Who's Kate. We've been talking about Kate this whole time.

[01:12:41] So Kate was apparently a quote it eccentric relative of the bells, who had previously stolen John's shoes, had some type of fight with John. So they didn't really, like Kate and Kate didn't really like them. So guess what? The story's not over. I know you thought it was, but there's more shit happening, [01:13:00]

[01:13:00] Stacy: so it never ends.

[01:13:01] So why it literally goes to 2023.

[01:13:05] Ashley: It actually does. It's still going. So you are like, you might be like, why do we know all this shit? I'll tell you. So there was this dude, his name was Martin Van Buren Ingram, and he was, hanging around. He was part of the Civil War. He got discharged. He began his writing career in 1866. But he didn't have any previous experience. Then in 1868, he moved to Clarksville, which is near I think where, near where all this Clark happened. Clarksville, Tennessee.

[01:13:34] Okay. Yeah. Yep. That is near. Okay, so he moved there and he ended up buying like the local newspaper and he owned it until, yeah, the called the Clarksville Tobacco Leaf in February, 1869. . Anyway, so around the time he ended up in Clarksville.

[01:13:52] He started going around to the neighbors cuz he heard this story probably in a bar. I feel like that's where everybody hears the story.

[01:13:58] Stacy: Everyone hears a story like this [01:14:00] in the bar. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, they're like, you wanna hear this took place in Adams, which is close by, so I'm sure he is we are gonna make this a thing.

[01:14:06] Yeah,

[01:14:07] Ashley: he went to the local, pub there and he heard this story and he's that shit sounds wild. And I own a newspaper so right. So I'm gonna profit off this shit. So he went and he listened to people who had been around. Now all this stuff had started in like the early 18 hundreds. Now it's the.

[01:14:26] Like later part of the 18 hundreds. So a lot of people who were actually there when it happened were dead, but So he got like Exactly. Which is perfect. Exactly. It's perfect, the perfect situation.

[01:14:39] Stacy: There's just one little old lady who remembers a little bit and then you can like add to the veracity of the whole story because Aunt Edna remembers this.

[01:14:47] And this one guy said that, every Yeah, exactly. This fake

[01:14:51] Ashley: timing. Yes, exactly. It was probably like somebody's granddad told them this story one time. So he found out all this [01:15:00] stuff and then he local, he published a book. And let me tell you the book, the name of this book is so long. So the name of the book is An Authenticated History of the Famous Bell Witch, the Wonder of the 19th Century and the Unexplained Phenomenon of the Christian era, the mysterious Talking goblin that terrorized the west end of Robertson County, Tennessee, tormenting John Bell to his death.

[01:15:24] The story of Betsy Bell, her lover, and the haunting Sphinx. Jesus price. That

[01:15:30] Stacy: sounds absolutely nothing like PT Barnum

[01:15:34] Ashley: at all's dramatic.

[01:15:38] Stacy: Wow, that sounds like a really sensible man.

[01:15:44] Ashley: This is not sensational at all oh my

[01:15:46] Stacy: God, how Tennessee has not changed.

[01:15:49] Ashley: It's so funny. So apparently in the introduction to the book, he said he got a letter from a guy named James Allen Bell, who is.

[01:15:59] The son [01:16:00] of Richard William Bell, who was the son of John Bell, one of the kids senior. Yeah. Yes. So he said it's the grandson. He got this letter in July 1st, 1891, and explains about his father talking to him about the Bell witch, even though they figured out though, like his father was like the youngest one.

[01:16:22] So yeah. When

[01:16:23] Stacy: all his stuff, but he's my daddy didn't kill the cat, but he was there. Yes.

[01:16:27] Ashley: But his dad would've been mad young, so they were like we don't know if that actually happened. The other problem was, the thing about that letter is we don't know if it was a real letter. Like it could have been easily fabricated.

[01:16:39] Yeah, easily fabricated. So this is part of the letter that apparently this guy wrote now nearly 75 years have elapsed. The old members of the family who suffered the torments having all passed away. And the witch story still continues to be discussed as widely as the family's name is known.

[01:16:58] Under [01:17:00] misconceptions of the fact, I have concluded that injustice to the memory of an honored ancestry and to the public also whose minds have been abused in regard to this matter. It would be well to give the whole story to the world. So the other thing is he was like, oh, he wrote me this letter, but told me that I can't actually publish it till everyone's dead.

[01:17:23] And was like, bro, what? I don't know how anybody was like, that doesn't sound fishy as hell. So I know

[01:17:29] Stacy: it's the birth of American journalism, basically all

[01:17:32] Ashley: of it. Exactly. So then apparently when they tried to publish the book the witch apparently came to the publisher and she started fucking up shit over there.

[01:17:44] Apparently she,

[01:17:46] Stacy: she can use that photo. Here's a

[01:17:48] Ashley: better one. Exactly. So apparently she was at the publisher. The publishing machines were getting messed up. Everybody was nervous. That's amazing. And everybody ran away. Yeah. But they still did [01:18:00] it. So the couple things that people are like we don't think that some of this happened, number one people are like if all this happened, So why didn't anybody write about it before?

[01:18:09] If you know this is the 18 hundreds, everybody's bored as hell. Life is hard. Don't you think they would've made a bigger deal about this if this had actually happened? So there's that. Then the other thing is that some people just think Ingram made up the letter and he just made up that he sensationalized maybe a small story that he had heard.

[01:18:29] People said Andrew Jackson probably never came to the house. It's probably a lie. John Bell probably had a degenerative disease such as like a muscular disease such as like MS. Or a palsy or something, and they think maybe that's, but it hadn't been diagnosed. And people said that Betsy was a big ass liar.

[01:18:45] They said that she was constantly, yeah, they said she was telling tales all the time.

[01:18:50] Stacy: That is so clear. So clear. Yeah. I'm so

[01:18:56] Ashley: Betsy. Shout out, Betsy. Shout out. Be I think [01:19:00] Betsy just didn't like her family. Seriously. And then she got engaged to a guy and realized she didn't like him that much either. She's oh, sorry, the bell witch says I can't marry you.

[01:19:09] Meanwhile, Betsy's I just don't like it. Yeah, exactly. She or she just realized that this guy like, didn't brush his teeth as much as she liked, but she's I can't marry this guy. Which is like none. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Cause

[01:19:22] Stacy: again, 18, early 18 hundreds and we're all miserable.

[01:19:25] Ashley: Oh, period.

[01:19:26] Everybody's so unhappy, so it's fine. So

[01:19:30] Stacy: can I know, can I review what we wrote in the, what I wrote in the booklet for yes, please do the bell Witch is scapegoating and Blame, as I mentioned. That's what the card represents. And I tell a brief. My, my book's only five inches tall, so I could not tell the story as long as you did.

[01:19:45] So you brought me a lot of details. I forgot, but I basically summed it up that there was this whole litany of complaints at the house. And then I end it with the following lesson for when you pull the card. The Bell Witch card and the Southern Gothic oracle represents scapegoating and [01:20:00] blame in the historic accounts of the Bell witch.

[01:20:02] The litany of complaints reveals more about the blamers than it does about the witch. In their worst moments, people blame someone or something for their troubles, like the devil or trickster in other folk tales. Why do we tend to blame or shame others? If you draw the bell witch card, examine whether or not you are inadvertently passing blame elsewhere, when the right thing to do is to fess up to your own shortcomings.

[01:20:24] Ashley: Betsy. Betsy, we're looking at you, Betsy. But it's true. Everybody's complaining about random shit. John Sr is saying that all this stuff is happening. Betsy's lying. Then Mr. Ingram goes and writes his false ass book, so like it just, A mess.

[01:20:44] Stacy: I want you to incriminate. I'm waiting. Go to the painting I did because the illustration I did for this card.

[01:20:49] So I painted all of the illustrations in the deck, they're all hand painted and I need and I'm also doing a tarot right now where I'm doing hand painted characters. And so I've been looking for models. I'm always [01:21:00] looking for models. I meet people and I'll be like, you're a really good queen of swords, that I think.

[01:21:04] But anyway, so I have already had my Southern Gothic oracle Instagram and there were people there who had already bought the deck cuz the Bell Witch is part of an expansion pack. It came later. So there was this young woman who had already bought the deck and who would like my, I don't know her at all, but she had I do now, but I didn't then.

[01:21:21] And she would comment on my post and be like, I love this deck, and say nice things. And her handle was at Bell Witch. Oh, and it was really cute and she's young and beautiful and she's got beautiful, like bouncy red hair, and I couldn't help noticing her that she's called Bell Witch and I was currently like researching Bell Witch, right?

[01:21:41] And I need a model. So I'm like, lurking on her Instagram, trying to find pic, personal pictures of her cuz she lives in Nashville and she works at a metaphysical store there that I'm familiar with and that I patron patronize. So I was like, I'm just gonna ask her like, I'm just gonna DM this girl, even if it sounds weird.

[01:21:58] And so I wrote to her name's Ellie. And I'm [01:22:00] like, hi, I'm the maker of the southern gothic oracle and I'm doing an expansion pack of these southern witches and ghosts and stuff. And one of the ones I wanna do is the Bell Witch. And she wrote back and she's oh, that's great. I love the bell witch story, blah, blah, blah.

[01:22:12] And I was like, okay, but this might be a little forward. I want you to be the model for the Bell Witch. And she was like, oh my God.

[01:22:20] Ashley: And she was, I'm so excited.

[01:22:22] Stacy: She wanted to drop everything and drive to my house. Like in that moment her enthusiasm was so like infectious. And then she was like, do you need any other models?

[01:22:32] And so her boyfriend Jake ended up being my moth man. So Jake is Moth man. Okay. And Ellie is the bell witch. And we had so much fun doing that photo shoot. God, they came in costume and everything and in the picture, Ellie is holding, she didn't bring one with her, but I later painted it in a little poison bottle that has the dark liquid in it.

[01:22:52] Okay. So she's all sexy and like a corset and skirts kind of riff. Yes. And then she's got the little, she's almost like a wild west babe, but [01:23:00] like the Tennessee version and then she's got this little bottle of poison liquid. Yeah. It's awesome. I'm really proud of it.

[01:23:05] Yes. I

[01:23:06] Ashley: know what I'm gonna be buying this Friday when I get paid. Yes. I love it.

[01:23:11] Stacy: But I can send you a graphic just to post for

[01:23:13] people

[01:23:14] Ashley: to see. Oh yeah. I would love to. And I'll definitely do that. I'll post it on Instagram and stuff. Awesome. So that comes to the end of their, this brings us to the end of our show.

[01:23:26] This has been tons of fun. I'm going to, Find a better list for next time we speak about Memphis Barbecue. Cause I don't wanna, absolutely wanna piss off my new buddy, Stacy.

[01:23:37] Stacy: You don't have to cause see, if you come to Memphis, I'll take you

[01:23:40] Ashley: to all the good barbecue places. Okay. I have the list.

[01:23:42] Sounds good. All right. Yes. I love it's the plan. I'll figure it out. So Stacy, tell us where we can find you. Anything that you are doing right now that you wanna talk about. I. So people can get into your work and see what you do. Absolutely.

[01:23:58] Stacy: I am [01:24:00] at my name is pronounced Stacy Williams Ng.

[01:24:02] My last name is Williams Ng and it's because my Asian husband has an unusual name but it's pronounced NG and so you can find me on Instagram at Stacy Williams dot. I also would encourage you to look at La Pothe Studios, which is my publishing company. LA Pothe is where Southern Gothic Oracle came out of.

[01:24:21] I recently just did another deck called Roses, dust and Ashes, that's all about cemetery symbolism. And then I did I worked with Nancy Hendrickson, who was your recent guest, and we collaborated to do the Ancestral Magic Divination Kit.

[01:24:37] Ashley: Yay. Yes. Actually, she's actually a guest later on.

[01:24:42] In the, we're gonna do her episode probably closer to Halloween. Oh, that would be awesome. Yeah. Yes. So I was like, okay. I know it wasn't out yet, but

[01:24:52] Stacy: I thought we recorded it. That's cool.

[01:24:54] Ashley: Awesome. Oh yeah, not yet. Yeah. we're gonna put links to all that stuff. We'll be [01:25:00] in the show notes if you guys wanna check that out.

[01:25:02] Yeah, so thank you so much, Stacy, for coming and chit-chatting with me. Thank you,

[01:25:08] Stacy: Ashley. This

[01:25:08] Ashley: was so fun. Yes, this is so fun for me too. And talking about the bell witch and granny's and all that kind of stuff, it's been such a good time. And Janet Jackson and Elvis. Yes. And Elvis. And how your dad went to school with him and peanut butter sandwiches with bananas.

[01:25:24] So how many. So many things. It's been such a good time. So everybody thank you guys too for listening. Again, we're dying with the Divine on all the socials, and if you like us, give us a rating on your platform of choice. And if you want email me again, it's dying with the divine pod gmail.com. And if you wanna follow me, Ashley, I'm Sankofa Hs or Sankofa Healing Sanctuary on Facebook.

[01:25:53] Thanks so much for being here. I'll see you next week. I hope you have a fantastic week, and thanks for being your awesome [01:26:00] selves, everybody. Okay, bye bye.