Polyamory and an Independent Woman with Janine James

Janine

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[00:00:00] Track 1: . Welcome to Dine with the Divine. I'm your host, Ashley, and today we'll be talking about all the mystical and magical goodness of the world. And so on today's episode, we'll be talking about polyamory and a woman who would not take it lying down. So everyone, thank you so much for being here, and I hope you're having a great week.

[00:00:26] And if not, I hope it gets better soon. So today we're gonna talk to a fabulous guest. We have Queen Janine here. Janine is third generation intuitive and a digital man, project Manageress. She specializes in helping individuals cultivate their most enchanting lives businesses.

[00:00:46] Hi Janine. How are you,

[00:00:47] Janine James: Hello. I'm doing well. How are you?

[00:00:49] Track 1: I'm doing good. I'm so happy you're here.

[00:00:52] Janine James: I'm so happy to be here. so good to see you,

[00:00:54] Track 1: Yeah, I know, right? It's so nice to see people you've been seen online and see their face and have an actual conversation. [00:01:00] Okay, so my first thing I wanted to just ask you about was how did you get into the spiritual space?

[00:01:07] I know it says you, you said you were a third generation intuitive, so is it something you grew up with or something you found later? So like how did you get into all this?

[00:01:15] Janine James: Yeah, that's a great question. I, growing up when I was young, my dad is, and he's still alive, is very intuitive. He always has been. He's a medium. He will just walk into a room and be like, oh, there's a dead, there's a dead person over there. And it's what? He'll say that to like people who can't see the dead.

[00:01:30] And I'm like, dad, you can't do that. Growing up it was always very fascinating to me that he had the ability to do that. And when I was very young, I allegedly was able to really tap into the other realm and just know things that no one else would know. But as I started getting older and older, that started fleeting and going away as it does once we get older.

[00:01:48] I grew up in a haunted house, so every once in a while I would hear things or things even but I quickly passed it off as oh no, I'm just, I'm tired, or, oh, I can probably prove that in some way, shape or form, wasn't able to prove it.[00:02:00] So that was my intro to all things.

[00:02:02] Spirituality. Once I turned 18, I moved outta the house and went to college completely. Just wasn't in the loop of anything spiritual or anything, witchy woo at all. And post-college started getting back into it a little bit more. It's interesting because I feel like a lot of witchy folks growing up, we all had the same background where growing up I would just make shrines and I like, okay, let me put some bones and some twigs on this and yay, there's my, that's my altar. So I thought that was just normal and , it's not something that most people do. It wasn't until 2018 that I really tapped into my spirituality again. I had a massive psychic awakening after really devastating breakup.

[00:02:40] And it has been all uphill since then.

[00:02:42] Track 1: Oh my gosh, that's so funny. So many things like you said, like I feel like I had so things going on. I was the same during college. I was like, eh, I think everything I thought was stupid now and I have to fit in with all these normal people, so I'm just shut up. Yeah.

[00:02:58] Janine James: yep, yep.

[00:02:59] Track 1: Never [00:03:00] talk about these things.

[00:03:01] And then later on, me Too was a breakup and I don't know what it is about breakups.

[00:03:06] Janine James: Yeah. Yeah. No, completely. You normally hear people like, oh, I had a near death experience, or they, I died and they brought me back to life. But no one really talks about breakups, like really kicking it off. But yeah, that's a thing.

[00:03:17] Track 1: It really is like breakups are so devastating and people will just be like, oh, that's all right. Back on the horse. And you're like, what? It's like somebody's died.

[00:03:27] Janine James: Yeah, yeah.

[00:03:29] Track 1: It's, yeah. So yes, I can see. And then people, people like, why are people always cut their hair? I'm like, because you need to your whole life after your breakup sometimes.

[00:03:38] Janine James: I'm so pro that, yeah, I always change something or multiple things when I break up with somebody.

[00:03:42] Track 1: same. I changed something, I caught my hair, or I like get a tattoo. That's always

[00:03:47] Janine James: yep. I was gonna say that. Tattoos? Yes. This last breakup I had, I ended up getting, let's see, 1, 2, 4. Four tattoos. Four, four.

[00:03:54] Track 1: Yeah. And you're like, no, this is gonna make me better.

[00:03:57] Janine James: yeah, yeah yeah.

[00:03:59] Track 1: I [00:04:00] love that.

[00:04:01] Janine James: it's

[00:04:01] Track 1: It's such a thing. I love it. So one thing that I think is so neat about you is you are. Like, even looking at your Instagram and like your whole vibe, you're very . You're very glamorous. You're, and not in a weird, stuck up like weird, capitalistic, annoying way.

[00:04:21] You're, exude this beauty that makes at least me think oh, like I wanna live my most beautiful life too. Look at her. Do you find yourself like doing that intentionally, like really trying to live that? Or is it just something that you just do naturally?

[00:04:39] Janine James: I d I guess it's something that I do naturally. Obviously like right now I'm dressed down a little bit, but still this is probably the most casual I will get. I love wearing like silk pajamas. I love wearing just like little camisoles around the house and things like that.

[00:04:52] It's definitely an energy that I just like to allude. Especially as somebody who works from home a lot. Like during the pandemic, I feel like we all went through it where we were just in [00:05:00] sweats or yoga pants nonstop for. A year plus and post that, I was like, you know what? Like I can make being a leisure life stylist glamorous and fun and exciting.

[00:05:10] And yeah, just really being intentional with how I go about things. I'm a big Miyazaki fan and I know that a lot of his movies, he very much wants to cultivate this like just beautiful energy and just like really romanticizing the most monotonous task. So that's something I've adopted as well, which is really just really feels good in alignment with who I am.

[00:05:29] Ashley: Oh, I love that. Yeah, like I love that you said like glamorizing the most monotonous task because it really does improve your life. I think when you think that way, cuz there's like the dumb shit we all have to do every day, but it's but if I feel good and I look cute and I smell good doing this, it's better

[00:05:46] Janine James: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm a huge fan of that. Yeah.

[00:05:51] Track 1: I love that.

[00:05:52] Janine James: so true.

[00:05:53] Track 1: I know you are, and this is also mostly for me because I don't know what this means completely. I get it [00:06:00] a little bit. So you are a digital brand stylist.

[00:06:03] Janine James: Yes.

[00:06:03] Track 1: what exactly does that mean? And that's again, mostly for me. Everyone else is probably duh, but I just don't understand

[00:06:09] Janine James: No, it's no completely. You're not the first person to have asked that. That's not, it's not, it's something I'm trying to coin, but basically being a digital brand stylist is being a brand strategist or a marketeer, if you will. So working with folks to help cultivate their brands to the next level through the internet.

[00:06:27] So coming up with, different logos for people coming up with taglines for people, things of that nature. Instagram styling is a big, or not Instagram. Emoji styling is a big thing, so I love to sit down with my clients and talk to them about their businesses and just really cultivate like a brand identity for them.

[00:06:43] So thus digital stylist.

[00:06:46] Ashleyl: Oh, okay. And is that you, that's. Is that like your other job? In addition to doing a lot of the different spiritual stuff you do.

[00:06:55] Janine James: Yeah. Yeah, that's, yeah, it is. So I have a background in tech. I [00:07:00] worked for I like to call it like the Holy Trinity, which was Google, Facebook, and Twitter.

[00:07:05] Ashleyl: Wow.

[00:07:05] Janine James: And And I was at Twitter when Elon Musk was there and everyone's always Ooh, did you get fired? I'm like, no. I left willingly that fork in the road email that went out.

[00:07:15] I was one of the people who's I'm gonna take that fork in the road and leave. So that was in November of last year, and I just really took a beat after that to just figure out who I was, what I wanted to do. I knew I didn't wanna work for another corporation again. I knew that I wanted to, I intuitively knew when I took the job at Twitter.

[00:07:32] I was there for almost two years. When I took the job at Twitter, like the minute I signed my paperwork, I like got a download that was like, this is gonna be your last corporate job. And I was okay, cool. I'm gonna be here for at least five to six years, I thought. So after Elon and his situation, I took a step back.

[00:07:47] Really just spent the last few months, just or the last few months of the last year and some of this year just trying to figure out what it is that I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to work with folks. I knew I wanted to have technology involved in my life in some way, shape or form, [00:08:00] even beyond like spiritual work that I do in terms of tarot and intuitive reading.

[00:08:04] I'd done a few website designs in the past and I knew that there was a market for it, so I really just decided to tap back into that because essentially that's part of what I was doing when I was in tech. I mostly did program and project management. The web design was something I just enjoyed doing on the side.

[00:08:18] So now I specialize in doing mostly web design and project management for small businesses. And more specifically, I love doing things that involve like the beauty industry. I have a in aesthetics I work with a lot of waxers and they're like, oh, you understand the lingo and the verbiage.

[00:08:33] You can help me with this. I'm like, yes, I can. So it's a way to, yeah, it's a way to include all of my interest in one way.

[00:08:39] Track 1: Yes. I love that. Oh my gosh. Okay. That is awesome.

[00:08:43] Janine James: Thank you. ,

[00:08:45] Track 1: okay, so we're gonna do our Dish of the Week. So this week I used a book called A Kitchen, which is Cookbook by Patricia Tesco. It's very neat. We did some, cuz I know you do a lot of Readings with love and like dealing with people with love. [00:09:00] So I thought let's look up some recipes that have to do with love cause that's fun.

[00:09:04] Okay.

[00:09:04] Janine James: for that.

[00:09:05] Track 1: I love it. So the first recipe we have here is a raspberry almond coffee cake. This sounds very good and I'm so sorry if you are anybody is allergic to nuts. You may not be able to make this, we can pick something else for you later. So almonds are usually used in a lot of wedding favors and in ancient times they were used for sleep and headaches.

[00:09:28] Didn't know that. Yeah. And then when combined with the water elements of raspberries, it allows abundant love to flow through Rene and encourages health and expresses joy. So for this recipe, you get some butter, sugar, butter. I'll try to type it up somewhere and put it on the internet so everyone can see it.

[00:09:46] Eggs, milk, vanilla, almond flour, brown sugar, almond paste you and you make a cake. It sounds delicious. It's, people use it for romance and it's also used for hand fasting [00:10:00] and courtship rituals. Valentine's Day, sweetest day anniversaries. Okay. And May day.

[00:10:07] Janine James: Nice.

[00:10:08] Track 1: . So the next one is love potion number . Nine. So this is a juice and it doesn't have any alcohol in it, so everybody could drink it. So it is made with at, ooh, it's a lot of different juices, so it's cool. So it's two cups of apple juice, two cups of apricot nectar, one teaspoon vanilla, one teaspoon ginger, an eighth teaspoon cinnamon, some ginger ale, raspberry strawberries, orange slices, and a small lemon peel.

[00:10:33] This does sound very sweet and it sounds very nice. It is made to bring harmony to restless relationships, and some people put lavender in it to bring extra peace to relationship. P it's also used to bring commitment, passion, understanding, and wisdom. And then our last recipe for today. It is a Rosemary Sherbert, which I was like, [00:11:00] I don't know if that's gonna taste good, but actually sounds pretty good.

[00:11:03] So this is it. You have rosemary hot water, some sugar some water, some lemon juice, and some orange juice. And this is also used to bring love to a relationship and they use it in Valentine's Day, Memorial Day, and many spring rituals. It makes sense. Love spring. And it just sounds really good.

[00:11:25] I have the link to the book if anybody wants to get this book. There's a lot of really good recipes in here, so I encourage you to do that. Okay, so now moving on. Okay, this is the part of the show where I plug myself real quick.

[00:11:42] So if you like this show, you can follow me on all the different socials. I'm d with the Divine on Instagram and Dine with The Divine on Facebook. And if you really like this show, you can pause it right now. Give us five stars, subscribe wherever you like to listen. Apple, Spotify, all the different podcast apps.

[00:11:57] And if you have any questions, suggestions, [00:12:00] comments, feel free to email me at di with the divine pod gmail.com. Great. Okay, so now is our little tea time educational segment. And we are gonna talk today about polyamory.

[00:12:15] Janine James: Yay,

[00:12:16] Track 1: Yay. So Jeannie, I know you are polyamory. Polyamorous. How is the

[00:12:21] Janine James: polyamorous.

[00:12:22] Track 1: Okay,

[00:12:23] Janine James: I'm a polyamorous.

[00:12:24] say either

[00:12:25] Track 1: yeah, I was like, wait, polyamorous. Is that right?

[00:12:28] Janine James: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It works. Both work.

[00:12:30] Track 1: So I I did my research and I also. So going into this, I was like let's talk about polyamory. I was like, the only thing I knew about polyamory is that you and anybody who seems to be polyamorous must be the best communicator in the world.

[00:12:47] Because I'm just like, , I admire anybody I've ever met who's yeah, I'm polyamorous. I'm like, oh my God. Everybody just has to be we all have to talk and I'm like, I have one partner. And sometimes that's hard enough to get there,[00:13:00] , you know what I mean? It's

[00:13:01] Janine James: completely get it.

[00:13:02] Track 1: When we were initially going talking, you were talking about ethical non-monogamy, that's the term that you used.

[00:13:08] And I was like, oh, I'd never heard of that. So I looked it up . I looked at this article and I put a link in the show notes and it's on a website with different articles about different psychological and mental health stuff. So it was pretty informative.

[00:13:20] And they have a lot of experts talking in this article. So one of the things they say is there are several different types of what people consider to be ethical, non-monogamy and then I think C N M, which I'm assuming is consensual non-monogamy our okay. Our umbrella terms that cover lots of forms of sexual and romantic connections involving more than one partner.

[00:13:41] These can range from Monogamish, which is a term coined by Dan Savage, where some couples mostly monogamous, allow occasional sexual dalliances outside the relationship through to polyamory where they're in full relationships with more than one partner. Okay. So [00:14:00] I have a quick question for you.

[00:14:02] Janine James: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:14:03] Track 1: In a polyamorous relationship. Let's just say I'm polyamorous and I have a partner who, and in these cases, now again, these are like all, this is all stuff that I'm learning. So some people have a primary partner, is that

[00:14:17] Janine James: correct. Yep, correct. Yeah.

[00:14:19] Track 1: So then if I'm dating other people, is it usually that, would it end up that I'm usually dating other polyamorous people or am I dating other people who may not consider themselves polyamorous?

[00:14:30] Like what do you see happens the most?

[00:14:32] Janine James: Ooh, okay. As a click dis No, it's, no, it's all good. But I always throw this out here where I'm like, I can speak from experience. I don't know what the most popular one is, but there's different relationship models and I will just tell everyone out there listening there's no true like way to be polyamory.

[00:14:48] There's so many different ways. There are people who I'll just throw some jargon out there. There's hinge partners, there's comet we have so much, we have our own little language. But typically how I can talk about my structure, [00:15:00] but I have a nesting partner who's also my primary partner, who I live with, and engaged too.

[00:15:04] And we're getting married year.

[00:15:05] Track 1: Congratulations.

[00:15:06] Janine James: you. Yes. So I live with her and we. Go about day-to-day living. If you saw us, you would just think we're a normal, regular, monogamous couple. But I also have another partner who lives out of state in Seattle, and they use, they, them, they're non-binary and they have a wife who they're married to, obviously, and two kids, two little ones.

[00:15:24] And then they also have a partner, a girlfriend who lives elsewhere in the same town as the, or a neighboring town. So they both live in a different state or all three of them live in a different state. And then me and my partner live here in California. My fiance and my fiance, I would, she's technically polyamorous, but she's more on the ethical, non-monogamy kick just because she's down to meet people.

[00:15:46] She's down to date. But she is as we all should be particular on who she starts a relationship with. So right now she is like casually dating when time permits.

[00:15:55] Track 1: Interesting.

[00:15:56] Janine James: Yeah.

[00:15:57] Track 1: When in your life[00:16:00] did you find that polyamory was, what was working best for you? When did this come up for you?

[00:16:07] Janine James: Yeah. Growing up, and when I say growing up, once I was over the age of 18, I was just very intrigued by lifestyles like this, but also very much had the mindset that most people have, or not most, but a lot of people have, where it's oh no I'm too jealous for that. Or, I don't know how people do that.

[00:16:25] Or, communication must be really difficult. I'm too busy for multiple relationships. There's no way that works out that's just approved cheating. It wasn't until 2020 when I was dating someone who identified as polyamorous that I was like, oh. And she was like, you should consider it. I can't be everything for you.

[00:16:42] Our relationship is going to probably have an expiration date because I'm planning on moving out of state. I really care about you, but I don't think I am. Like, For lack of a better term, like you're person, like we can date, we can continue being partners, but I just don't think that from a value standpoint, we're fully aligned on the same [00:17:00] values in the way that we, should be for a long-term nesting primary partnership, in the grand scheme of things is true and we're still very good friends. But yeah, that's essentially how I got into it. And with her blessing, I was like, okay, I'm gonna try this. I don't think it's possible, but I'll try it. And sure enough, I think about a year in, I was like, oh shit, I'm in love with somebody. I'm in love with two people. Oh my gosh, this here we are.

[00:17:22] Track 1: That's neat. Such a beautiful, it's like for, I would say most people it's so different. And like you said, when I first heard, and this is like a few years ago when I heard it, I was like, I don't know man. I was like, I, and I will admit I'm super stereotypically was a jerk about it cuz I was like, just sounds like a way for people to cheat.

[00:17:46] And I'm, that's who I like the way I was thinking about it. But then I had listened to an interview years ago with a woman. was talking about how she was married to a man. And then she also had a boyfriend [00:18:00] and I was listening to it and she was say what you were just saying.

[00:18:02] She was like my husband, yeah, I love him. He's great, but he doesn't like all the things I like. For instance, this lady was really cute and she was like, I really like to fish and my husband hates fishing, but her boyfriend really liked to fish, so she would go fishing with him. And her boyfriend really liked opera and she did, but her husband didn't.

[00:18:19] And so she would go with opera and like they were enjoying this relationship and. It's such a beautiful thing. And she's yeah, I love this person for who they are. And I also think, like I said, when I was way more naive about things, I really thought it was all about sex. Yeah. I was like, oh, it's just people just wanna bang each other, blah, blah, blah.

[00:18:38] no it's about love or it's about just enjoying yourself outside of your partner. Again, I'm not polyamorous, I'm just saying what I've gotten from what I've read and listened to people talk about it.

[00:18:51] Janine James: Yeah,

[00:18:51] Track 1: yeah. But it seems like it's a way of fulfilling different parts of your life, it. Yeah. And like you said, one person, like [00:19:00] nobody, I don't think any of us in life, for instance, this is just my example, this is why we have friends, right? Like

[00:19:06] Janine James: Exactly. Exactly. That's what I tell people. I'm like you have more than one friend. And most people are like, yeah. And I'm like it's similar. It's just, you're romantic and usually intimate with, the other people. But I've met people who are polyamorous and they are not intimate with some of their partners.

[00:19:19] It's just strictly asexual, which is very interesting too.

[00:19:23] Track 1: Yeah, that is also interesting. And because then I think, again I don't know anything about this except for trying to do some research about it. Cuz then I'm like is it like just a friendship? But you know what, everybody can define things the way they want. of my business. Yeah. . And I think it's so important that we all, I really think it's really important that other people like start to learn a little bit more about all these different things so we don't make all these weird assumptions about it. What, to you and I've been chatting when I'm not the one who knows anything about [00:20:00] this

[00:20:00] Do you , is it is it difficult for you to find other people or do you have your own, like community? I'm sure. And is it like you, it's easy now for you to find more people who are polyamorous.

[00:20:12] Janine James: Yeah. Ah, I live in the San Francisco Bay area and I feel like it's so funny because anytime I go on a dating app, I will see, one or two people that's. We'll literally post on their app like, Hey, I'm one of the few people in the Bay Area that's not polyamorous. And I think that there's definitely a lot of truth to that.

[00:20:27] It's not weird. I was at Pride this weekend and, I, my partners, both my partners were there and we had a great time and I looked over at one of my other friends who was also polyamorous and she had her coup her two partners with her. And we were just like hey. And we just got together and chit chatted.

[00:20:40] So it's a little more common here and I think it's pretty easy to find community. There's actually a mixer tonight at a local bar for polyamorous folks, so there's definitely like things that you can do to find others. And I do definitely feel like it's something that is a bit of a wave of the future.

[00:20:56] It's been around forever, but I definitely think that it's, I don't wanna say [00:21:00] trendy, but rising in popularity, we can say. And I think that's just part of the fact that people are starting to realize, just having one person to lean on for anything and everything isn't always sustainable.

[00:21:11] And obviously we do have friends as well, but. Yeah, there's also that opportunity to really lean into a relationship with somebody and experience things that maybe one partner isn't into, like my other partner they really enjoy the same music as I do, so we love going to shows together. We love just lounging around and chilling.

[00:21:28] And my other partner who I live with, my fiance, we're both very active together, so different folks for different things. But that does definitely doesn't mean that one is like better than the other. It's just, different folks.

[00:21:41] Track 1: Yeah. Do you find that, with you saying that, do you find that it takes pressure off one person, for instance, your fiance, maybe it takes pressure off them because you have somebody else, who you can do other things with. You find that's that sounds really healthy actually.

[00:21:59] Janine James: [00:22:00] yeah, yeah. No, definitely. One of the best things about polyamory is I just remember, I think it was last year I was. I cap at three I can't have more than three girlfriends or partners or fiances because that's just I don't have that many hours in the day dedicate like, having sustain it.

[00:22:16] It's not sustainable to have more And also I wanna be fair, but I just remember I believe it was last year, I just was like, okay, I'm, I forgot what event I was going to, but I was going to an event and I was trying to figure out what to wear. And it was nice because I was just like, Hey, do you like this?

[00:22:29] To each one of them, like via text message. So I was able to get opinions. It's, I always say I have a cheer squad, which is really nice. So if like I'm going through something, I can reach out to each of them and know I'm gonna get their support and their love. Christmas is always really nice because I tend to get a lot of gifts from all, from everyone I'm dating.

[00:22:47] But it's also really nice to just have multiple anniversaries to celebrate someone always go on a trip with someone, always talk to. So it definitely takes the pressure off of just, my fiance here. I can, spread the wealth and spread the love.

[00:22:58] Track 1: yeah.[00:23:00] So in this. In this type of relationship, when you say you wanted to start dating somebody new, like you said, you cap yourself at a certain number so you can give equal time to everybody, which is a really good idea. But say you did meet somebody and you wanted to, and you felt that would be okay, would, do you then, and again, I'm super stupid on this

[00:23:20] Janine James: No.

[00:23:21] Track 1: I'm

[00:23:21] Janine James: Oh my God.

[00:23:22] Track 1: Okay.

[00:23:22] Janine James: at all. No.

[00:23:23] Track 1: Would you talk to each person and discuss this before you go into it?

[00:23:28] Janine James: That's a good question. So it really depends. Typically if I am going on a date with somebody, I will just say Hey, heads up, I'm gonna be going on a date with, This person on Friday, they seem really cool. Here's a fun fact about them, or case may be. Just so that everyone, and by everyone I mean the two partners I have is aware that this is happening.

[00:23:48] And then, I might go on a second date or I might not, might develop, but typically if something does develop and I'm like, oh, there's a connection here and I really like this person, I will talk to both partners separately and just be like, Hey, heads up. [00:24:00] I do really like this person and I, I'm gonna ask them out, or I wanna keep seeing them, or I think they have the potential to be a partner longer term.

[00:24:07] And then typically I will talk to each partner individually and just say how do you feel about that? Usually I'll put my cards on the table and just be like, what are your thoughts on this? How do you feel? And usually it's either, there's usually like one of two responses. It's either oh, awesome, that's great.

[00:24:21] Or there's some expression of jealousy or some expression of how's that gonna change our dynamic? Okay, what does that mean for us? So just navigating that. But I really Put them in the driver's seat. And I'm just like, all right, what are your thoughts on this? You have the hot seat.

[00:24:33] You can say what you wanna say about this. Yeah, that's typically how it works. But if say I was, I don't know, out with some friends and I met somebody, I don't, I'm not somebody who does this, but say I met somebody and I decided to make out with them on the dance floor. I would just tell my partners when I get home afterwards oh by the way, I made out with somebody tonight.

[00:24:49] And usually they just are like, okay good on ya. Good it. Good job. yeah.

[00:24:54] Track 1: Good job.

[00:24:56] Janine James: Yes

[00:24:57] Track 1: so that goes to the point we were talking about [00:25:00] before and this other quote I was reading in this article, which I thought was really interesting. It says, you need superb communication, emotional and negotiation skills to make it work long term. Many people do not have a good grasp on consent, talking about consensual non monogamy or ethical.

[00:25:15] And so they use these terms without actually gaining consent from all their partners, and some use ethical non-monogamy as a justification of their behavior. But what you're saying makes sense. It's okay, if something happens, it happens. You can tell them after, you mention it to people and it's, you all seem to have the understanding together that this is what's happening.

[00:25:37] It's not Janine is doing this, but your other partner who lives in a different state, has no idea that you may go out else. Yeah.

[00:25:44] Janine James: yeah. No, completely. But I think there's also the, there's also this like weird assumption by people that non-monogamous people get, don't get jealous. And I'm like no. We get jealous. Like we definitely, it's a normal human reaction It's totally normal. So [00:26:00] I think there's this stigma of oh, you can't be jealous, or, oh, you can't speak up about, everything has to be harmonious.

[00:26:04] And I'm like, it's not always like peaches and sunshine. There's definitely, conversations that are difficult that are had, there's renegotiation like you mentioned a moment ago. There are like, we often will quote like the escalator because in a typ typical like monogamous relationship, you get together, you become official, you move in together, you get married, you have kids, you have all of this cookie cutter life.

[00:26:25] But in non-monogamous relationships, we can continue up that path or we can deescalate. So there's instances I've heard of people who have nesting partners that they live with, but then they decide to move in with a secondary partner or another partner that they have for six months. Or they decide to Be engaged to two people at once or be married.

[00:26:43] Obviously it's illegal in this country to be married to two people at once, there'll be like a proper, like a legitimate marriage and then a marriage that's not on paper. So there's all different ways to go about juggling non-monogamy.

[00:26:57] Track 1: Yeah, that's a, yeah, cuz that is my next [00:27:00] thing that I was thinking too and what I read in this article where they're talking about jealousy. Cuz used to, again, when I was not educated, I'd be like you must never ever be jealous. You just, and I just be like, wow, this is why I think polyamorous people are way better than me.

[00:27:14] Because I was like, cause if my partner's dating somebody else, I would be not necessarily obviously I don't know, but I feel like in my head, But this is my own insecurities, it's not their problem. I'd be like, oh, is this person prettier than me? Are

[00:27:30] Janine James: Yeah.

[00:27:30] Track 1: me? Is it just cuz they don't like me as much as this other person?

[00:27:34] But . Like even though those things, like everything you're saying is completely logical and makes perfect sense, I think it would just be me battling with my own insecurities. So seems that of course, like you're saying, like you just said, of course people can get jealous, you're in relationships.

[00:27:50] But it also sounds like there has to be a lot of maturing that happens individually and everybody may have to look at themselves [00:28:00] individually to see where they are in their health mentally.

[00:28:04] Janine James: No, completely. Yeah. It takes a very, it's a lot of you, you very much have to be secure with yourself, but at the same time I have moments of I'm jealous. I know I'm awesome, but I also get jealous and it's oh, this person does this, or this person does that, or, oh, you get to spend more time with them because you're in the same state, or, oh, you get to live with them and I don't get to live with you.

[00:28:21] So there's definitely moments of like jealousy, but it's, I feel oh, In my opinion, where people really crumble is when there isn't solid communication, which is such a thing in the community. A lot of people, especially here in the Bay Area, will claim to be polyamorous, but then won't be honest with their partners or they won't communicate properly, or, the minute somebody's Hey, I'm jealous, they end up dumping them.

[00:28:43] That's, I dated somebody late last year and she wasn't, I wouldn't consider her polyamorous, she claimed to be, the fir at the first sign of me expressing any sort of, frustration or resentment towards, her adding somebody new into the mix, she was like, okay, peace. Done. I'm, I can't do this.

[00:28:59] Bye. And [00:29:00] I'm but that's not polyamorous. Like we're supposed to work together to figure this out. It's communication and compromise and understanding where I'm coming from. You can't just, leave at this at any sort of conflict. So definitely big on conflict resolution and negotiation.

[00:29:14] Track 1: Yeah, that makes so much sense. I feel that people, and at least people like I'm coming from the monogamous side of it. I've heard people be like, oh, I'm polyamorous. But they say that just so that they can date people, but then they don't tell their partner. So then you're like, that's cheating.

[00:29:33] You're like what that is. It's

[00:29:35] Janine James: yeah.

[00:29:36] Track 1: Again, stupid question is there,

[00:29:39] Janine James: No,

[00:29:40] Track 1: so was so dumb when I say this.

[00:29:42] Janine James: no. There's stupid questions. no, And I've asked any, all the questions under the sun, so all good.

[00:29:48] Track 1: So what? What would constitute cheating or

[00:29:53] Like, or is that just not really not that it's not an issue, but what would constitute [00:30:00] somebody? Being not honest or if you know where I'm going with that,

[00:30:04] Janine James: Yeah yeah. No, solid. It really just depends on how different dynamics have sh are structured, because some people might think that I just am thinking of this one thing. I had a friend tell me this and I was like, oh. She's oh, yeah, I don't care who my partner's with, but anal is off table.

[00:30:18] And I'm oh, okay, there you go. That's technically

[00:30:21] Track 1: Got

[00:30:21] Janine James: depends, that's, that is considered cheating or like dishonest. But it really just depends on, I, in my, how I defend, how I define cheating for my poly kill is if there is any sort of a sexual relationship that occurs or a romantic relationship occurs that I was unaware of.

[00:30:41] That's how I personally define it. Again, if there has been an issue or an issue, if there's been a situation in which somebody goes out and makes out with somebody, okay, right on. know, keep me in the loop as well. It's my big rule for my partners is always, they're like, oh, do you have any rules?

[00:30:55] I'm like, be safe. And that is a bullying rule because it's sexual safety, [00:31:00] it's physical safety, it's emotional safety. Just go out and make safe decisions. Don't do anything that will ultimately jeopardize, our relationship or your relationship with somebody else in the group. So yeah, that's how I define that.

[00:31:11] But I, again, there's so many people out there who just, it, it baffles me because I'm like how do you cheat? And if you're polyamorous, like how does that happen? Just be honest.

[00:31:21] Track 1: It's like

[00:31:22] Janine James: be honest

[00:31:23] Track 1: This is the easiest situation to be honest in.

[00:31:26] Janine James: Yeah. Completely. And didn't ask be like, Hey, I wanna do A, B, and C. How do you feel about that?

[00:31:30] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:31:30] Janine James: And but also there are, there are instances in which I see this a lot too, where people will. Be together. And then they'll have a crush on say I don't know somebody's friend. It'd be like if me and my partner if it's if I were to like sleep or hook up with my partner's best friend that, or ask to do that, she might be like, absolutely not.

[00:31:49] That's inappropriate. I don't like that. So if I were like, oh no, I actually wanna move forward with this, that would definitely be grounds for like being solid cheating. So things like that, it's just, you have to, you just have to communicate about it.

[00:31:59] Track 1: Yeah. [00:32:00] Okay. I love all this learning we're doing. Oh gosh. So I also have here so you talked about having a lot of different lingo and I, Yes. And I was like, oh, let's find out about some of this. I was like, it's very, I, it's used the word comet before,

[00:32:18] Janine James: yes.

[00:32:19] Track 1: Yeah. So what I have here as a definition for Comet, and I got this, and I'll put a link in.

[00:32:24] This is ready for Pauly ann marie.com. , it's a long distance partner where the partners only meet in person rarely, but are happy to pick up their connection at those times and be less intensely in touch in between, like a comment passing close enough to the earth to see every few years. Oh, okay.

[00:32:43] Janine James: Yeah.

[00:32:44] Track 1: oh, all I kind That's nice. Yeah.

[00:32:47] Janine James: it's cute. Comic comments are cute. It's like very, I find that usually when there's like long distance or like somebody's working a ton or if somebody lives out of the country, like my partner who lives up north, they were dating somebody who lived [00:33:00] in America but had two partners abroad. during COVID, she did not get to see her partners because they lived abroad.

[00:33:07] So that, I think she would define those two relationships as comedy or they seem come esque.

[00:33:13] Track 1: Yeah. Oh my gosh. And then you also said the word polyol. yes. Here, let me see if I can find Polyol itself. But that says closed Polyol. Oh, here we go. Poly Cool. Is a network of interconnected relationships can be used to refer to the network itself or a chart illustrating the same. Oh, a chart.

[00:33:35] Oh gosh. Okay. official. I was like,

[00:33:37] Janine James: Yes.

[00:33:38] Track 1: A poly I can't say that word, but we'll go, keep going. Because of the varied possible configurations and how they can resemble charts of a chemical structure of molecules. That's cute actually. Yeah. groups and networks larger than four people often simply use poly or constellation.

[00:33:56] Oh my gosh. guys have the best words.

[00:33:58] Janine James: I know. [00:34:00] know, I know. So good.

[00:34:02] Track 1: I know. To describe their network rather than using one of the specialized terms for a smaller unit as the shapes can get complicated. Oh, I love that.

[00:34:12] Janine James: Yeah.

[00:34:13] Track 1: Okay. Oh, okay. Then we have, related to that, there's a quad, a four person relationship network where all the parties are romantically interconnected.

[00:34:21] Okay. This is a term that I was like, what? Okay. But I understand it. But I was like, I like the term relationship anarchy. I love that.

[00:34:30] Janine James: yep, Yeah, it's good. good. Yeah. That's what I practice. It's funny, people are very, they just, I think they imagine just everyone just being hog wild and they're being oranges all the time with relationship art and

[00:34:41] Track 1: What, the first time I read that I was like, I just imagined everyone running around just I'm like, oh, but obviously that's not right. But that's came up in my head. Which is a relationship structure that can be viewed as a kind of non hierarchical, I can never say this word.

[00:34:57] I'm so sorry everybody. You Yes, [00:35:00] you. I'm sorry. Polyamory. , but more specifically applies anarchist principles of self-determination and lack of state involvement to intimate relationships, often abbreviated as ra. It allows for the individual definition of each relationship without labels being applied.

[00:35:17] And a great deal of argument exists around how RA is or isn't included in the polyamorous movements and community. Interesting. But. That seems way more equal to everybody, right? You're this is this person to me, so you're only this person to me. And I guess you can get it can get unfair.

[00:35:41] For instance, if somebody says you are my, like you said, not in this definition, it talks about the state getting involved. So we were saying marriage, maybe some don't wanna marry so that they don't feel like, oh, this person is my spouse legally and you just my partner that I whatever.

[00:35:59] Okay.[00:36:00] Wow. Okay. This

[00:36:02] Janine James: Yeah, RA is very interesting. There's a lot different schools of thought of it. We practice in my poly keel slash constellation. We practice most of us anyway, I can't speak for everyone, practice ra, and it's just for us, the overall thought behind it is just everyone kind of having their own autonomy.

[00:36:18] So I have a really good friend who does practice. She does have hierarchical e and m and it's, she has her partner and they're very happy. They'll go out and have their fun, but it's just okay, see you in a few weeks or whatever. But it's not I don't wanna say they're nothing to her cause that sounds really mean, there's less of that like connection of, okay.

[00:36:34] Like it's her and her boo thing are always gonna be like each other's number one, and everyone else is just awesome. I like to use ice cream analogies. Everyone else is just like cherries and nuts and whipped cream on top. And with us it's just oh, cool. I have ice cream of three different flavors here.

[00:36:50] Awesome. That's great.

[00:36:51] Track 1: That's wonderful. There's even something, and this may sound like a like an oxymoron. There's something called solo [00:37:00] polyamory.

[00:37:00] Janine James: Yep. Mm-hmm. , that was solo Poly for a long time.

[00:37:03] Track 1: Interesting. So yeah, there's a form of polyamory in which an individual chooses to be their own primary partner. Yes. Choose yourself. Yes. Yes. Building connections without the assumptions of progressing up. The quote, and you talked about this before, relationship escalator with one or more often includes the assumption of living apart from all partners.

[00:37:24] Okay, I like that too. That's beautiful. All these things are so interesting. And in this, these terms, there's a lot of other like LGBTQ terms. So I'm not gonna read all those cuz most people know what a lot of those means. But oh, this is another really cool one. Lap sitting polyamory.

[00:37:41] The more. Yeah. Okay, so now we have to read, first we have to read kitchen table cuz it's related to that. Okay. Kitchen table polyamory a style of polyamorous relationship in which the interrelationship of a network and the integration of multiple romantic relationships into one life or group is prioritized.

[00:37:59] Close [00:38:00] relationships between metamours and or tele mores are strongly encouraged or required. The name comes from the notion that all members of a network can sit around the kitchen table and their PJ's drinking coffee. Oh,

[00:38:14] Janine James: Yeah,

[00:38:16] Track 1: and then the more extreme version of that is lap sitting polyamory, which implies positive connotation of no coercion or pressure.

[00:38:25] And this is popularized by the Multi Amory podcast.

[00:38:28] Janine James: That's such a good podcast.

[00:38:30] Track 1: Oh man, I gotta I gotta put that on my label, my list. Okay. And the last one I'll read because you mentioned it too, is Hinge. Cuz I didn't know what Hinge either this shared partner between two people also. Oh I get it. Okay.

[00:38:43] Janine James: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:44] Track 1: I was like, oh, I don't even have to explain this one.

[00:38:46] I understand. Hinge. Okay. Because using a shapes describe to describe molecules, they're often a point shape, hinges on point A shape hinges on also because hinges can open and close as a [00:39:00] convenient metaphor for describing the relationship between the metamours. Wow. Everybody, I'm gonna put this in. I'm gonna put this in a show notes so everybody can see all these different terms so you can understand different things and I'm just so happy that you're here to discuss that cuz I just feel like so many more people just need to understand.

[00:39:20] I feel like there's such a lack of, at least. For me, maybe I don't, I can't speak for everybody, but for me and like people in the different communities I'm a part of don't understand this at all.

[00:39:31] Janine James: Yeah.

[00:39:32] Track 1: And they don't really know a lot of people who do this. And I only understand any type of poly anything in terms of old timey, one guy got to marry a million

[00:39:45] Janine James: Yep, yep. The polygamy thing.

[00:39:47] Track 1: Yes.

[00:39:47] Janine James: Yeah, wives

[00:39:49] Track 1: yeah. And I know it's like way more than that. And that's like a whole, it's whole other, and again, we talk about ethical monogamy here, non-monogamy, that's [00:40:00] not really so ethical cuz people are being coerced and people are not consenting. So it's a completely different ca category. So this is so important and thank you so much for going over all this stuff.

[00:40:10] Janine James: Yeah,

[00:40:11] Track 1: Yeah, I don't wanna sit here and be like, you have to be my authority on I hope I did not make it seem

[00:40:17] Janine James: Oh my gosh. No, not at all. it's definitely one of those things that I can talk about forever. There are a lot of things I can talk about forever, and this happens to be one of them. So yeah, I'm always excited to talk to folks about it.

[00:40:26] Track 1: Awesome. Thank you so much

[00:40:28] Janine James: You're so welcome,

[00:40:30] Track 1: great. So the next thing we're gonna do is we'll have our story time now and I know that you've worked with Lilith

[00:40:38] Janine James: Yes,

[00:40:39] Track 1: so this kind of, and the whole discussion about polyamory and love and, self-respect and consent all goes along with Lilith. That's why I was like, let's talk about all this together, cuz I love it so much.

[00:40:51] Okay most people have heard of Lilith and they either know her as some type of demon or they've heard the[00:41:00] story that people hear now is that she was Adam's first wife. But the whole thing about Lilith, cuz we, we deeper than that, there's like a lot going on here. So some of the nicknames that Lilith has, we'll just go over some of the nicknames and they come from a lot of different cultures.

[00:41:15] I'll let you know in a minute. Are the screech owl, beautiful maiden, the dark Maid, the flame of revolving sword made of dissolution night. hand of Inana, the night witch and the howler. Okay. Her colors tend to be black and red, and she is a goddess who's all about gaining back your power, your freedom, balancing relationships in, in proving sexual relationships between you and the other person or the other persons.

[00:41:46] And really sexual lusty kind of love is her place, but it's not just a place of having sex with everybody, with no regard. It's more of a conscious, making decisions for yourself, deciding what you wanna [00:42:00] do, deciding how you wanna live your life. She's all about that. She's not to be held down at all.

[00:42:05] She's very let's go. I wanna, I'm gonna decide who I am and nobody's gonna tell me who to be. That's why Lith is pretty cool. So her story actually starts way before. The story of Adam, it starts all the way in ancient Sumer. So in ancient Sumer, she was called Lily two, or Lillis. Lillis is more what they called her in Yiddish later on.

[00:42:30] But there are some scripts that call her Lillis. So she was seen as the goddess of the wind and storms, and she was seen as a bringer of death and misfortune. So that makes, that tracks because if there's a big storm and everybody's houses get destroyed, she's seen as bringing misfortune and death to people, especially back then when, different resources may have been limited.

[00:42:53] So this is from a book via Encyclopedia of Spirits that I've quoted a million times. I love this book. She was a spirit of light and darkness. [00:43:00] Lilith was both an angel and a demons of conception. She was blamed for miscarriages, stillbirths. Crib deaths and inf infertility. Lilith the baby killer, quote unquote, also bestowed fertility when and if she chose, she has dominion over sexual desire, erotic dreams, and sacred sexual magic. Later on, you'll see the whole baby thing. Why they said that. There's a lot of stories though, also from ancient Sumer of her being a suc goodbye, which is like a sexual female sexual demon. An inai or incubus not like the band, but yeah. , a male quote unquote male sexual demon. So she usually appears with black or red hair.

[00:43:45] She appears either really old or very young, but she's always really very beautiful. That's her thing. She's gorgeous and ancient Sumerian texts. She actually has bird feet and she's actually an extension of the Goddess Inana. She actually is also [00:44:00] called the Hand of Inana. One of her first stories.

[00:44:04] She's seen as bringing men to IANA's Temple for sacred sexual rights. So in ancient Mesopotamia, in a lot of the temples, the priestesses. Were also sex workers. They didn't necessarily take money, but what they would do is the men would come there and they would have sex with them as part of sex magic.

[00:44:28] And that was part of what kind of kept everybody good. And in those times Lilith was seen as she was the one to come and bring or tell the men to go to this temple and create these sexual rituals that would help cleanse the city in some states, bring good luck help grow crops, all that good stuff. But that was the job of the priestesses . Also just to mention about her animal, she has different animals that are associated with lith. The number one is the owl and probably cuz it's [00:45:00] also a night animal. But she also really loves jackal's.

[00:45:03] Hyena's. Wild cats. Black cats. Black dogs. Ostriches. Ostriches I found was interesting. , black dogs, snakes, dragon spiders, and unicorns. She's very old spirit. She is among one of the primorial spirits and she is now coming to the modern age. For a long time nobody really cared about Lilith. One thing I see with Gods and goddess is they get trendy and then they get not trendy,

[00:45:28] Janine James: Yep.

[00:45:28] Track 1: Yeah. Right now she's very trendy. And she's also seen as literally just chaos. , she is in a lot of different cultures, a lot. She makes appear appearances in Babylonian script, Assyrian script for the Canaan's. I can never say the pre Hebrews guys. That's what I'll call them right now.

[00:45:49] , the Hebrews, the Persians, the in different Arabic myths. And then some of the other, the Medan and the Banian, which were other groups in [00:46:00] the Middle East. So she was also in their text too. So she also has, and I can't remember, exactly where, but most of us read Gilgamesh in school cuz we were told to

[00:46:13] So she is in the story of Gilgamesh. In somehow, and in this story, I think Gilgamesh. Ends up like saving somebody from her, something like that. So she's always seen as doing something wrong. It's messed up cuz she's honestly just doing her job. Like she's a wind spirit also.

[00:46:32] And that also shows how she's she can't be chained down and nobody's, she's not supposed to belong really to anyone. So now we get into the whole Adam thing. So the Adam thing goes like this. So Lilith and Adam were the first two people. So they said that God created Lilith and Adam out of Clay equally, no problem.

[00:46:53] So they were living in Eden and Lilith was doing her thing. She didn't really like [00:47:00] Adam. That was the thing. I guess she just thought Adam was annoying. I don't know. But she didn't like him . And then when Adam was like, you know what, actually I think I'm in charge. And Lilith was like, and so who told you that?

[00:47:12] And he's I don't know, but I think I'm in charge. And she's Adam, I leave me alone. And then he was, and then they were instructed. God instructed them. They have to make more people.

[00:47:23] Lilith found this gross. She did not want to, she didn't even like Adam. So why would she wanna do some weird act with him? She didn't like him. So then the other thing says that like either Adam was forceful with her or that they were going to have sex and Adam wanted to be on top. And she did not.

[00:47:38] This literally, this story guys, like she, he wanted to be on top and she was like, actually no. And he was like I wanna be on top because I'm like, on top of you, literally. And she's absolutely not. So then she got up and she screamed the ineffable name of God, which was super not cool.

[00:47:54] That was, you were not supposed to do that. So she yelled at me and God came [00:48:00] running and he was like, pardon, you're not even supposed to call me. I don't know what you're doing. So he told her, get outta Eden. So she left and she's yeah, no problem. I don't wanna really be here anyway.

[00:48:10] I don't really like Adam. He's a jerk. Like the fruit is good, but I actually don't wanna be here with you people. . So she left. So if you think about it, what happened next, right? God, if you don't know the story now, Adam's by himself, let's start from the beginning again. God made people, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:48:29] Now it's Adam. And then God made Adam from Eve's made Eve from Adam's rib. Why? Because now Adam basically has a clone of himself, right? She's gonna be obedient, she's gonna do what he says. She's gonna agree with everything he says. It's easier. So this is where now Adam's oh great, I can make people cuz I basically have the most obedient, easy person in the world who came from me.

[00:48:55] So that's how that happened. Eve is completely, totally obedient. [00:49:00] And now Lilith is seen as this evil, terrible person cuz she left Eden. They said that she went to go live by the caves in the Red Sea and that's where she lived ever. Now there's different stories of what happened from here.

[00:49:17] One of the stories says that she slept with every demon in the world. They probably just said this cuz they wanted to demonize her again, but also maybe she did whatever she was out here having a good time. , she could do whatever she likes. She, but they also made the argument that. Back then, they were like how many demons could she sleep with if people weren't doing things wrong, there weren't that many demons to do stuff to?

[00:49:39] I'm like, okay, that makes sense. So whatever. They also said that at this point that Lilith living in these caves by the Red Sea, she dedicated herself to pagan rights in nature. And she that she really didn't ever wanna go back to Eden, even though God and a whole bunch of angels kept trying to get her to go back.

[00:49:58] The angels came and they [00:50:00] told her, listen, you can come back to Eden, but you have to protect all these kids and be the protector of children and have a bunch of kids. And she's absolutely not.

[00:50:10] I'm not doing that. Sounds like a lot of work. She's I'm actually having a really good time here in my cave, sleeping with demons. Like I'm having a great time . So they were all confused, but it's fine. So then one of the stories, again, there's a lot of different stories. One story says she met as modus and as Modus.

[00:50:26] We talked about him in a different episode with he was our demon friend who was friends with King Solomon, but King Solomon actually hates him anyway. She met as Modia and apparently, Lilith fell in love with as Modia and had a whole bunch of babies.

[00:50:41] Those babies end up being called gin. So they said that Lilith the birther of genie of these little spirits, obviously. And again, we talked about this in a previous episode, but so they said she created Jim. But in some stories, Lilith is sterile, so believe what you like.[00:51:00] Some Cabales also say there's two Lilith's.

[00:51:04] One is married to as Modia sdi, and the others married to Saml, who's the chief of the evil angels. And she met him because she was riding a blind dragon at one point. And the blind dragon was like, you wanna meet my friend, this guy who's the evil angel? And she's okay. . So she may have been two people.

[00:51:23] She may have been one, but at some point they stated that she married and had children with these. Other demons at this point still. She, either she was sterile or had children, didn't matter. God really wanted her back still. So God came to talk to her. He also sent a bunch of angels, and when she came by, they were like, Lilith, you should really come back to Eden.

[00:51:45] She's absolutely not. I could never be with Adam. Because he's the worst. And they're like no, just come back. But then she was like, actually, I slept with a whole bunch of demons so Adam doesn't wanna sleep with me anyway, so ha and . And they were like, oh okay, [00:52:00] that's weird. And then they were like we're gonna drag you back.

[00:52:02] And she's if you drag me back, I will kill any kid that Adam has try me today. And then they were like, okay, fine, we won't. So then she calmed down a little bit too, and she's okay, just leave me alone and I promise I won't kill anybody. And if anybody do, if I do decide to kill someone, all they have to do is shout in the name of an angel and then I won't kill them.

[00:52:22] So they say if Lilith ever quote unquote attacks anybody, you just have to shout the name of an angel and then she'll leave you a alone. There's another myth in me. The Madian path of Lilith. The median, median, I'm sorry. They're the people of like a little bit northern Iraq. In this story.

[00:52:42] She's a daughter of the Queen of the underworld, and she marries a king of light. Her dowry was a crown, a magic mirror, and a pearl. And then they had a son who knew both realms, day and night, dark and light, and he was super smart. And later the son defended her against accusations of being a child, stealer [00:53:00] demons, and actually said she was sitting on the beds of laboring women, helping them.

[00:53:04] So there's a lot of arguments over if Lith hates kids or not. From all of the, from all the documents I read, it sounds like she just wasn't that interested in kids. And back then, everyone assumed that if you are a person who can have babies, you should be obsessed with children. And she wasn't. So they were like, she's an evil person.

[00:53:23] No, that's, so I think they just made up all the stories just to make her look bad because she was a vagina having person who didn't wanna have kids. So that's obnoxious, but that's Lilith. But thing you need to know, , the most important thing you need to know about Lilith, like we said at the beginning, is Lilith, just and every single story we had, she made her own decisions.

[00:53:42] She didn't need a million to come by and save her like, like she didn't need, she never needed saving. She made all her own decisions and she was demonized in so many different texts for doing this. So a lot of people call on Will if now to find the strength that [00:54:00] she had. Imagine she was like the only person in the world who like was actually annoyed with God at the time and nobody was on her side.

[00:54:08] She had to live in a cave and she found joy. And we're proud of Lilith and we stand for her. And that's our story about Lilith. She's fantastic.

[00:54:18] Janine James: That was so good. I

[00:54:19] Track 1: Yeah. I'm so happy that you are here, Janine. this kind of brings us to the end of our show. So where can people find you on the internet?

[00:54:31] Janine James: Yeah. Through my website, www.xojanine.com. My name is spelled j a. And then how you would write out nine n i n e on Instagram, xo Janine, Michelle with one L. Yeah, those are the two main ones.

[00:54:46] Track 1: Yay. So everybody find Janine, we're gonna put all her links. Yes. We'll put all her links there. She does love reading. She does all sorts of wonderful stuff and she's also takes really good pictures. She always has cool pictures.[00:55:00] So just look at her Instagram and, hit her up.

[00:55:02] Everybody that brings us to the end of the show. Thank you so much to our guest, Janine. She's been so awesome and fabulous and we, me, I am dying with a divine here and again, I'm on Instagram, on Facebook. Again, if you like the show, give us five stars on wherever you listen. And if you have any suggestions for episodes or any comments, feel free to email me at Dine with the Divine Pod.

[00:55:25] And if you wanna follow me, Ashley, I'm Sankofa Hs. That's s A N K O F A H s and Sankofa Healing Sanctuary on Facebook. So thank you so much everybody. Have a wonderful week and I'll see you next time. Bye.