The Complexities around Perfume, Mole and Smelly Ladies with Mauricio Garcia

Mauricio

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[00:00:00] Ashley: Welcome everybody to Dying With the Divine. I'm Ashley, your host, as usual, the same person as last week. And today we're gonna be exploring the mystical, the magical, everything in between culture and all that good stuff. So on today's episode, we're gonna talk about the history of smelling good. And a lady who was mad cuz she wasn't getting any.

[00:00:29] So I'm gonna introduce our fantastic guests today. Maurizio Garcia is an animus perfumer based in San Francisco Bay Area. His work aims to nourish the relationship between perfume people and the more than human world. Mauricio's inspiration is born from the fragrance, ecology of the Pacific West Coast, the marine fog redwood forest.

[00:00:54] I'm petrified of redwoods, what we'll talk about later. The cold, the golden and grass hills [00:01:00] home to butterflies, coyotes, and many other beings. Also scared of coyotes, but we'll talk about that later too. Root inference. Ancient origins and ancestral veneration. Herb Craft perfume is a boutique fragrance studio that specializes in the creation of fine fragrances, fragrant enchantments, and ritual ointments.

[00:01:20] Rio draws upon 18 years of working and learning from herbalist medicine makers, master crafts. Women of the perfumery, spiritual practitioners, and of course plants and spirits themselves. He's an advocate for perfume's, stewardship of the environment, and its reclamation as a sacred substance.

[00:01:40] Hey, how are you? How's it going?

[00:01:43] Mauricio: I'm well, I'm super stoked to be here. I've Listen to all of your other episodes and they've been really fun and I've been following along, so I'm very honored to be one of your guests.

[00:01:53] Thank you. Oh my God. I'm excited for our conversation.

[00:01:56] Ashley: Thank you so much. I appreciate that. So first of all, [00:02:00] First question. Okay. How did you even, how did this become a interest of yours? Has it been something you've always been interested in or was something, was there something that sparked your interest about perfumery?

[00:02:13] Like what made it happen for you here?

[00:02:16] Mauricio: I think that okay. What made it happen? I suppose I can answer that with some vague whatever, but I can actually give you a dream. That, Ooh, was, this was the crossroads, where I can decide to whether I wanted to pursue this or not. Herb Craft was originally more of a skincare and treatment line.

[00:02:38] I. Did a lot of formulation around different types of treatments, including therapeutic and just for enjoyment teas. And so I. Was introduced to natural perfumery by a dear friend Ella Gluckman, whose mentor is Mandy Tel, who everyone should definitely check [00:03:00] out. She's super cool. She's like the godmother, Beyonce of natural perfumery.

[00:03:04] She's pretty badass. But anyway, she was like, you need to read my mentor's books, and I think you'd be really into it. And so I did, and then I had this really crazy, intense dream. I came to, in the way of dreams in this kind of dark room that looked like a study or a library or some place that people, someone did work.

[00:03:26] And there's this like long table that of course dream of having now down the middle of this book lined room and. On the table were all of these different beakers and piles of paper and books and jars and all kinds of stuff, and like perfume bottles. And suddenly this like wind picked up in in this room and all the bottles and papers and stuff started to whirl around themselves into this kind of cyclone and the started to glow and.

[00:03:55] I heard this voice like, in, again, in the way of dreams that if [00:04:00] I put in the time to learn the craft, I could learn the secrets for conjuring and binding spirits into fragrances and bottles. What? Yeah. So I was like why wouldn't I do that? You were like, yeah, and here I'm great. Here. I'm like seven years later.

[00:04:21] Oh my

[00:04:21] Ashley: God. That is so cool. Oh my God. That's oh my God, I love

[00:04:26] Mauricio: that. Yeah. I'm it. Yeah, I'm, I don't know what else to say besides, I'm very grateful that the, that door, that pathway opened up to me, yeah. It's certainly been an alignment. It feels as though everything I've learned.

[00:04:42] Certainly lends itself to this craft. And yeah, I'm just, I feel very fortunate to be able to do it. For a living, with that. Obviously, I wish there wasn't all these other elements tied to it. I wish I could just make things for people. I do think that in another version of our society, that is what I would be doing.

[00:04:58] Yeah.

[00:04:59] Ashley: I think [00:05:00] another version of our society, a lot of people would be doing things.

[00:05:04] Mauricio: Yeah. Hopefully, someday that'll, that version will just be in a future Yes. Time space as opposed to. An alternate universe. I know.

[00:05:14] Ashley: That's what I think too. Cross our fingers. I know. Okay, so my other question is, you are not petrified of redwoods as I am.

[00:05:24] Oh no. I love them. Okay. That's good to know. I've never have seen a redwood in person, but I have, yes. Me and my mom, I think I inherited, we have this weird fear of Very large natural structures. And just seeing redwoods makes me anxious. I'm like, oh no. We don't. I live in the east coast.

[00:05:43] We don't have trees that big. So I'm like, oh no. I

[00:05:45] Mauricio: can't handle it. I'm like, who are you? What do you know? What can you tell me?

[00:05:51] Ashley: I know, right? They're they're, they must be so old so they, yeah, they know

[00:05:56] Mauricio: everything. Trees that like, there, there are trees that are older than, [00:06:00] are most pop some of our more popular religions?

[00:06:02] Yeah, it definitely put, they put things into perspective that

[00:06:07] Ashley: is so crazy. Oh my god. Okay, now we got over that question. Cause I was like, I have to talk about this for one second. I will find somebody who is as petrified other than me and my mom. Or you'll meet one

[00:06:17] Mauricio: and you're gonna fall in love.

[00:06:19] Ashley: Maybe. I know. I do love a tree. I love a tree. But I just like the sheer size. It's just like it's, they're so thick.

[00:06:27] Mauricio: Yeah. They can be pretty massive. Like some of 'em, like the way the roots have grown slash road slash human ingenuity, you can drive through them like below them. Yes. And they're still live and they're still like supporting their babies around them and all

[00:06:40] Ashley: that.

[00:06:40] And so my friend Who's an herbalist. She was telling me how she like read this book that Trees talk about how trees can talk to each other basically. Oh yeah.

[00:06:49] Mauricio: With their roots. Isn't that cool? Yeah. And with aromatic molecules. What? Yeah. Oh yeah. That's why I love it so much. It's definitely like my [00:07:00] childhood portion making fantasies come to life.

[00:07:03] That's so

[00:07:03] Ashley: cool. Okay, with air, so with the molecules in the air. Oh. So the trees like release

[00:07:08] Mauricio: molecules, trees in different types of plants will release molecules. Obviously the scent of flowers are something that we're very familiar with. And those smells are totally meant to attract pollinators, although they also use the same molecules to ward away harm or predators. But it just depends on the, their relation, the interspecies relationship. It's. It's, a lock and key situation. Similarly to how we would be drawn to the smell of a luscious mango or some other ripe fruit to spread the seeds for the plant in exchange for food.

[00:07:43] But yeah, it's totally signaling smell. I'm sure we'll get into it, but Smell is our oldest since before sight, before sound, before touch. It was

[00:07:53] Ashley: yes. Okay okay. Oh, this leads me to more questions. Okay. So it's so funny cuz you wouldn't think of that, with [00:08:00] trees. Everybody would think of it with flowers.

[00:08:01] And flowers. Yeah. They have specific colors and smells and bees love them because they're colorful. But you don't think that with trees. Trees you just like, like they're there. They're in the ground and that's it. And Okay, fine.

[00:08:12] Mauricio: I do think that the, I'm not, I am. I know what I know within my sphere, but trees, I I do think it's just so fascinating that there's all these different types of communications that Yes.

[00:08:26] We are, the majority of life on this planet is bacteria, right? And then there's plants and animals and we are, and fungi, and we are more like plants. Yeah. And then obviously animals and fungi than we are these other bacteria. Yes. And we're also like made up of them.

[00:08:44] It's a whole thing. And I find it all very fascinating. Me too, but yeah, they, they talk to each other with these interconnected serpentine networks that look like our own neurons, but also look like the patterns of galaxies in the heavens. Yes. And so it's just like this. And then at the [00:09:00] same time they.

[00:09:00] Work with, the spirits of the air carry their messages to each other. Yeah, I love it all.

[00:09:05] Ashley: I just sometimes I have the same, I had the same feeling that I'm talking to you now that I had when I was in nursing school and I took biology and I'm in physiology and I was like, everything is just working this crazy interconnected system.

[00:09:23] It's just, it just works. And like you're saying, it's oh, and then the, there are these molecules and then the air carries the molecules over here and then they were like, oh, hey tree. We're also the kind of tree that you like. And then healthy

[00:09:35] Mauricio: bees. Yeah. Or other, yeah. Or other species. Or then bees eat pollen and essentialize from plants and then they like metabolize alchemize.

[00:09:46] The, its essential oils and aromatic molecules to create their own communications with each other. And it's I'm doing the same thing just in a different way, at a different scale, smaller scale. If you think of [00:10:00] these, this entire species using these compounds in that way. Yes.

[00:10:05] Ashley: Oh my god, I'm, this is so cool.

[00:10:06] Mauricio: Yeah, magic. Magic.

[00:10:08] Ashley: It's magic, there's Oh, absolutely. Oh my God, there's so many things in the world that are magical that like we take for granted. Something like you're talking about like the trees or even perfume itself, like it's so magical that like you bring together these and it's, there's like a whole, I've been reading a lot about perfume the past couple weeks.

[00:10:29] I'm like, there's a whole thing to it. Yeah, there's top notes, there's middle notes, there's this, there's that, and

[00:10:35] Mauricio: and that all has to do with volatility, which isn't Yes. Another air aerial air element aspect of Yes. Although they're very, also earth being carbon molecules and all such.

[00:10:46] Yes. And you're, and fire and subtle spirits, the whole thing.

[00:10:49] Ashley: Yes. It's fascinating. So one thing I know you are really, you really do, and we just talked about it a little bit in your bio, how like you're really into talking about [00:11:00] sustainability. So can you, cuz I tried to understand this, but I didn't.

[00:11:05] So can you explain to me a little bit about what goes on in like the, not regular but like perfume industry in general. Like where are they getting all these scents and stuff? Because like you, and I think of and no offense to like Britney Spears or whoever, but like you, like cheap like perfumes in like Walmart or wherever, and then you see there are these perfumes that are thousands of dollars and I'm like, Are the ingredients different?

[00:11:29] I just wanna un I don't understand what's going on

[00:11:32] Mauricio: here. Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy to give you a little just so fragrances are made up of aromatic molecules as we've been, that those words that we've been saying. And all those molecules are they all come from.

[00:11:47] Either an extracted source, so like an essential oil from a plant. Very frequently. Botanical essence is like rose oil or Jasmine Absolute. Which is a solvent extraction of the, it's so expensive too. [00:12:00] The Yeah, they're very pricey cuz it takes Thousands of pounds of something like a rose or a jasmine to make a single pound of oil.

[00:12:08] Or absolute. The difference between an essential oil is a, it goes, a plant matter is put through a steam distillation process. And then the essential oil is collected. An absolute is a solvent extraction where plant masks. Plant matter is dissolved with a solvent organic solvent, carbon dioxide, hexine and then, oh, it's turned into this like fragrant lumpy mass of plant melted pets, pretty much melted plants, wax and all kinds of pigments and all kinds of things.

[00:12:38] And then that's tinctured in alcohol and that creates the absolute. There are also older slash less industrial extraction techniques that can be utilized like tinctures on phages, which is layering a single layer of a delicate flower that cannot be extracted from. With a intense essential [00:13:00] essential distillation or solvent extraction.

[00:13:02] Things like lilac or poisonous plants like the torress and lilies of the valley that won't the aromatic compounds won't survive the high heat and intensity of the distillation. So you can imagine, where do plants come from? Very frequently, monocultures. So these, vast fields that.

[00:13:21] Derive water from where do they, are they pulling water from communities that are water impoverished in order to sustain industry? Because these compounds are not only used in perfume, they're also used in flavor. Vanilla flavors of vanilla vanilla ice cream, right? Yeah. Coffees, all kinds of stuff.

[00:13:38] These are all, and then, Scented products as well. So it goes, a lot of it goes beyond just perfume into this fragrance industry. So big, big farms, large farms industrial size production of plants. And then when you start to think about what what. The labor [00:14:00] might look like, are people paid fairly?

[00:14:02] Are they treated fairly? Do they have access to what they need? Does the community in which this business exists have resources? Or is, money being unevenly distributed is real. Issues around that are born of global capitalism that the industry is very much a part of. The fragrance industry is, has a very.

[00:14:23] Deeply rooted history in colonialism. Fragrance materials were grown in different parts of the world. Slave labor was utilized to grow them until the more modern centuries. And even then, it's still really sketchy. It's doesn't mean that it's ethical. The Amazon still being. Chopped down to grow, whatever Madagascar is still not being, that biodiversity is still not being protected, and yet we're like harvesting and using all this land to grow these plants.

[00:14:51] Yeah. And so it's it's, but at the same time, people depend on the production of these materials or. Plant beings is a better way of [00:15:00] considering them in order to survive and in order to participate in the global economy, which obviously is not designed to benefit them. It's a very, that's very, it's designed to benefit a very small selection of people.

[00:15:11] But it's perpetuated by a very large number of people. And then we get into aromatic, like single molecules. Petrochemical byproducts are make up a large portion of the perfumers pallet. So while we're not pumping fossil fuels out of the am out of Alaska to make perfume, we do use byproducts from the fossil fuel industry to produce aromatic molecules because there are these, all these in intricate and infinitely complex molecules.

[00:15:41] And fossil fuels are this like rich carbon source for. For starting material. But modern technology has allowed us to begin to synthesize aromatic molecules from alternative sources, things like algae which is way more sustainable than fossil fuels. And so there's a lot of really cool work [00:16:00] being done by some very amazing people around bringing, bringing our sources for fragrance.

[00:16:08] Into a more ethical and regenerative space. So sustainability generally means producing so that you have enough to continue producing into the future, which is still not very considerate of the planet as an organism or yeah, species as having every right to live and thrive on this planet that we do.

[00:16:26] Regeneration. Is a much more holistic approach. And so it's really cool to have been able to connect with people that are regenerating the rain, the Amazon rainforest, growing caram or protecting endangered species while using like an plants that inhibit erosion. And they're like aromatic plants that we don't harvest for the essential world, but they're plants that are really powerful for protecting landscapes and such.

[00:16:54] Yeah.

[00:16:54] Ashley: Oh my. Oh my gosh. Okay. There's so many things. Okay. First of all, I [00:17:00] always think this too with cuz you were saying it like it's not just a fragrance industry, but it leaks into other things, like you said, flavors and different things. And I always think like garbage bags smell now. Oh yeah, that is true.

[00:17:11] That is true. And I love a smelly garbage bag. And now I'm like,

[00:17:15] Mauricio: you're like, do they need to

[00:17:16] Ashley: smell? Yeah. I'm like, I don't really need it, but it does smell good, but okay, I don't need it.

[00:17:21] Mauricio: Just as a thing, right? If we're, I don't know if the, maybe at some point the tech will be that this plastic is a biodegradable plastic that comes from some sort of, Regenerative plant source that doesn't take a ton of land.

[00:17:35] And maybe they, I don't know, maybe there's, the fragrance also comes from that. It's not as though it's impossible to create things. I just think that the framework in which we're forced to exist this, capitalistic patriarch goal oppressive, extractive way of being keeps, easier and cheaper is what is the name of the game skill.

[00:17:57] Yeah.

[00:17:59] Ashley: And it's it's [00:18:00] so crazy cuz one of the things like you were okay. So many things. So the first thing, the other thing I was thinking was you were talking about like the monoculture, I guess when people, so that, I hope I'm explaining it the way you were saying it. It's like when somebody's growing all of one thing, right?

[00:18:13] Mauricio: Yeah.

[00:18:15] Ashley: I just remembered reading somewhere at some point in my life about Like when the when the colonists came and they were like, oh, tobacco's super great. We can grow so much tobacco, right? I think in Virginia they're like, we're just gonna grow tobacco.

[00:18:32] But the indigenous people being as smart as they were, we're like, yes, but you can't grow tobacco everywhere all the time, because it was destroying the fields, like it's something that you can only grow in one place. Because it messes up the soil or something. It like

[00:18:45] Mauricio: to plants. Plants are meant to grow in diverse communities, right?

[00:18:50] Yeah. We're, I think in this modern era, people forget where things come from. Especially, especially things like food Now with the, in the states so [00:19:00] much as pre-packaged even like berries come like pre-packaged and all these anyway, and they're like Frankenstein, gigantic big old things and he.

[00:19:08] Anyway, that's whole opening. Sorry. Sorry. It's totally fine. But oh my gosh, that totally made your question thought. Oh. The, yes. So plants like to. Grow in diverse communities. And a good example referencing indigenous north Americans and the pilgrims are like the concept of the three sisters, right?

[00:19:29] Like that corn, beans and squash grow very harmoniously together and flourish when they're together. The nitrogen fixation of one really supports the growth of another, whereas the shade that is cast by one. Protects the other and they all support each other. Monocultures, deplete land of nutrients.

[00:19:50] They obviously also will then require inorganic fertilizers. That run off into water sources and taint and give people. [00:20:00] Diseases and Yeah. It's just, it's really cancer. It's really it just it's never think of the settler mindset never changed. Yeah.

[00:20:07] It just de it's exactly as it was. When they were like, we can grow a bunch of tobacco. And they're like, wait a minute, what's going? And they're like, who cares? We're just gonna keep doing it. It's monoculture is a huge. Aspect of American industry, American agricultural industry.

[00:20:23] Look at like corn. Like corn. I think there was a point in time where corn was fertilized with like leftover gunpowder from one of the major wars. Oh no. And it's but are we surprised?

[00:20:33] Ashley: Are we surprised? No. Not surprised

[00:20:35] Mauricio: at all. No. And so that's like people are mean outta that now. That's

[00:20:39] Ashley: crazy.

[00:20:39] The fi, right? Like

[00:20:41] Mauricio: Yeah. We are made out of all of these things we interact with, including the perfumes that we apply to ourselves. They alter our, ourselves, our forms, our, I am I'm a, I'm not a huge proponent of the separation of spirit and matter. And so I think that it's all very interconnected and very, things affect [00:21:00] each other and affect us.

[00:21:01] Ashley: Oh, I, yeah, I totally agree. Like they say you are what you eat. Like it's, it is true. And all these things, I think. In addition to affecting the environment, like you said, and we're, our spirits are also part of the environment and the environment is part of us for sure.

[00:21:18] We walk around, we are nature. Yeah, exactly. We're here and then we go into the ground maybe and depending on how you wanna do that, but

[00:21:25] Mauricio: yeah. And then you then who knows, then the adventure starts. Exactly.

[00:21:29] Ashley: Exactly. And also, like you talked about, And I think this all the time too with a lot of people being, and there's nothing wrong with being a vegan or anything, but I was talking to somebody and they were like, oh, I have this friend and they're a vegan, and they were on like a, again, nothing against vegans, but this particular person was like, oh, you know how, like acting like they were superior or whatever.

[00:21:50] So they were saying to, we were having this conversation about the fact that. There's, of course it's fine to be vegan, it's fine to be not vegan, whatever. But [00:22:00] sustainability goes both ways. Cuz this person was saying to this friend I was talking to oh, you know the meat industry and it's not great, blah, blah, blah.

[00:22:07] Which is true, don't get me wrong. But like it's also true that A lot of people are eating vegetables, me included, that are harvested by people who aren't being paid fairly.

[00:22:17] Mauricio: Like 100%.

[00:22:18] Ashley: Yeah. So it's it's all shitty. Like unfortunately

[00:22:21] Mauricio: none of it. None of it. It's all designed, it all works the way that it was designed to work.

[00:22:26] Yeah. But the design is not for us.

[00:22:29] Ashley: No. And there's so many people in the planet now that it's like, On the one hand I wish everything was sustainable and equal and fair and I hope one day in my life that it would be right, but then you think to yourself though there's so many people though, before it was a little easier maybe in you tell me what you

[00:22:49] Mauricio: think.

[00:22:51] No. Please finish your thought before I insert mine. Oh, no, it's fine. I was

[00:22:54] Ashley: always, my thought is always I just don't know. I think Okay. Before [00:23:00] colonization, right? Let's go let's say it's like the year 1000. And there are communities where people are able to feed themselves in each other because their communities were very small.

[00:23:12] So I think now I'm like, I'm, I pray and wish that we had a more sustainable environment, but I'm like, how would we do it on such a big scale? You know what I mean? When there was maybe a billion people in the world versus now we're like, what? Eight, 9, billion. But what do you think about that?

[00:23:29] Mauricio: I am gonna lock my, mis my misanthropy into a closet in my mind and tell him to have a cocktail. Cause he has a lot of opinions about it. And I'm going to, I'm going to say that,

[00:23:46] A lot of it comes down to the way that we exist in the world and the way that we make things. But also what people have access to. And so again, it goes back to things are working the way that they were designed to work. We, those of us that [00:24:00] live in more urban areas are meant to be dependent upon the.

[00:24:06] In the increased costs that bringing food into this region requires, right? That's part of the design. It's not that, rather than designing a city to. And to be habit, to be a home for not only all the humans that reside in it. Notice I'm saying all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially, that's a very big thing here in San Francisco.

[00:24:30] Homelessness is an issue as well as Ridiculous wealth gap. People talk as though they're not hand, they don't go hand in hand, and they do. Absolutely. Absolutely. Or, people and the species that existed here before, botanical and non, and animal. And if we can.

[00:24:47] Rewild cities then cannot, we al can't we also figure out how to introduce an agricultural system? Like it's, I don't know how there are many better thinkers and and [00:25:00] writers around this topic than myself. And so I certainly encourage people to look to indigenous leadership especially for, these remodeling of the remodelings of the world.

[00:25:10] There are. There are people that have. Really thought what this thought about, what this could look like, what this transition that really needs to happen could look like. Because according to the Das Gupta review, which was done which was completed by Cpar, the Das Gupta, an economist for the uk for the government of the uk we are currently producing, so making shit.

[00:25:33] As though we have 1.6 planet Earth. Damn, that's more than half the of what we have. Like what the hell? That doesn't make any sense.

[00:25:41] Ashley: And there's still people who ha, who don't have enough of things they need Exactly. And

[00:25:45] Mauricio: don't Exactly. And things that, and are exposed to illnesses and disasters.

[00:25:50] That, and in this age, we have the ability to address, but because wealthier nations would rather hoard resources, once [00:26:00] again, the hoarding of resources. That isn't, it's we aren't a harmonious species. There is, I'm sorry, I'm gonna go onto this tangent, but I read it go today and I kind ofm think you might like it.

[00:26:10] I don't know. Kinda everything you're saying is independently be on theme. I don't know. Or piss off some people. I don't know. We'll see. I don't care. The y chromosome in our species is disappearing. Yeah. It's happened in species before including like rat species that exist in like Malaysia and Japan.

[00:26:27] But that means that like the male of the human species that gene is degrading. Talk about the patriarchy being obsolete, but that's a whole other topic. But what this would necessitate in order for our species to survive is to diversify and. Develop a new gene, a new gender gene.

[00:26:48] But the issue with that is that because our species is so big and so spread out different genes could develop amongst different populations. And those populations could [00:27:00] potentially not reproduce with each other or wouldn't be able to reproduce with each other. So it's it's we I don't know what's going on.

[00:27:06] Yeah. I don't know what the future is gonna look like. There's so much, we think evolution happened fucking to rats with the dinosaurs. But it's, we are changing constantly. We are, yes. Essentially planets ourselves. We are made up of countless microbes, countless beings that have their own experiences within our bodies and make up.

[00:27:24] The emanation that is our identities or how we see ourselves. And so anyway, it just feels as though the, like future of our species is a little more like up in the air than we would like to assume, but also that means that we have, we like know so much our species has done so much over the last many thousands of years over the many ages of that we've been around, right?

[00:27:50] The age of tourists saw the development of Grand societies in agriculture, ancient Crete, Mesopotamia. The age of varies is not my, not necessarily [00:28:00] my favorite. There's a lot of patriarchy and monotheism became huge themes and such and and we are still figuring that out.

[00:28:05] And then now we're in the age of Pisces and, which is, Sort of slightly mad Housey feels like. But to the next is the age of Aquarius, which is very much about technologies and development and the threads that connect the past in the future. And the whole of a species or the whole of really any kind of entity that is made up of multiple things.

[00:28:26] Damn. Sorry. That's what I meant. I was like, I dunno what

[00:28:30] Ashley: question. No, not, sorry. That gives, that gives me so much to think about. And everything you said leads me to the idea first of all, like when I said before oh, there's so many people, but like it's so much bigger than that. We just have to think differently.

[00:28:44] And that's, yeah, exactly. Yeah. We don't, no one needs

[00:28:46] Mauricio: to disappear. We don't, yeah. It's no one, it's not that anyone shouldn't exist. Of course that's not, that's, it's more that like how do we use our vast numbers and our desire to live a [00:29:00] pleasurable, fulfilling life to make it so that other people and other beings that we share the planet with can also do that.

[00:29:07] I think that's there's so much potential for us to do that. I just, you know what it looks like, who knows. Yeah.

[00:29:14] Ashley: And it would definitely like, and when you talked about, like you said, you live in California, in San Francisco? I do. And I live in New Jersey, and I live right next to New York and in New Jersey and New York, it's like the same thing.

[00:29:27] In most parts of the country, I would think, and lots of parts of the world, it's this, like the wealth gap is insane. Like it doesn't make sense. Yeah. Like especially in New York, in New York City, you wanna get a studio apartment, it's like $3,000. It doesn't make any sense. And then we have all these abandoned, I have one in my town, a giant abandoned factory.

[00:29:49] Oh yeah. And I'm like, We could just it's just been sitting there for years and years, and then people are like, oh, we are gonna, somebody's gonna buy it and make it into these high price condos. Why? What? Why [00:30:00] I'm, and I'm not opposed to people having money, like of course I like to have money too.

[00:30:04] That's not a problem. But it's like the immense greed of people, and I feel like this has started to really, the past maybe couple years, couple few years, has really grinded my gears. Like the immense greed. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with people having money and enjoying that money. I think I wish everyone I knew, I

[00:30:22] Mauricio: mean, I think that's where it's like where the issue becomes prioritizing, like imaginary numbers over real suffering.

[00:30:31] Yeah. And real. Potential for people to have what they need. So it's like, why? Yeah. What? What is the reason to quote Cardi B?

[00:30:42] Ashley: Is that exactly what is for what, what is a reason? Yes, that's one of my favorites. It's just madness. Okay, so this is fantastic. We're gonna move on to our next section cuz this could go on all day and it will go on another time.

[00:30:58] Maybe because I love this [00:31:00] conversation, but

[00:31:01] Mauricio: I know we haven't even touched on like spirits and spooks and magic. I know

[00:31:05] Ashley: exactly. We will definitely touch on spirits and spooks to magic in a couple bits. The first thing we're gonna do is we're gonna talk about the dish of the week. So this week our dishes something that I had never heard of and because with our story, we're gonna be in Mexico with our story.

[00:31:24] So our dish of the week is mole.

[00:31:29] Mauricio: I love mole. Okay.

[00:31:31] Ashley: I had never heard of Moley until about a month or two ago when I was on. It's so magical. Oh my gosh. So I was on Facebook and I saw this video that I was at work, like I'm not supposed to be doing this, but I didn't care. So I started fucking this video, you can care.

[00:31:46] He gets a shit. I know. I'm like, whatever. I don't care. I start watching this video. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I started watching this video and it was about this woman who has her own restaurant in Oaxaca, and I hope I'm saying [00:32:00] that

[00:32:00] Mauricio: right. Yeah, it's a beautiful region of, you should definitely visit.

[00:32:03] It's my favorite part of Mexico.

[00:32:05] Ashley: Yes, I've seen pictures. It's gorgeous. She has a She has a restaurant there, she makes mole. And in the rest, and in this particular video she was making what she was saying, and I'll go, and there's different types of mole. So she was making a funeral mole for somebody died, obviously, and she was explaining how to make it, how she was roasting these chilies.

[00:32:25] And she has this thing, it's called a, I hope I'm saying this right, a matata. It's it looks like, or describe it. It looks like a little stool and it looks like a rolling pin without the ends. And what she would do, this is like the traditional, from like way, way back, way that people would grind chili.

[00:32:45] So she does this every day. This woman. It's probably the strongest woman in on earth because this looks hard. Like she was going and she's yeah, I'm gonna brought one of those

[00:32:54] Mauricio: back on a plane with me once. Really, I really wanted, I really, I was like, am I gonna carry this around with [00:33:00] the rest of my vacation?

[00:33:01] Almost happened. Looks,

[00:33:03] Ashley: it looks like it's made of like granite, like Yeah, it's heavy. It's

[00:33:07] Mauricio: like it's a rock. It's yeah, they're pretty fucking heavy. Yes. It was

[00:33:11] Ashley: a heavy thing and she was grinding and

[00:33:13] Mauricio: thes are strong.

[00:33:15] Ashley: Ooh, this lady, I was like, she could pick me up and throw me across the room with this lady.

[00:33:19] Yeah. She was so adorable. But I was like, this lady is drunk because she was going at it, but so she was grinding all these ingredients and just explaining how like she got the let me read what I wrote about it first also, so we'll get back into this lovely woman. Okay. Sorry. But it's Gemini season.

[00:33:35] Oh, and I am a Gemini, so I'm like, all right.

[00:33:37] Mauricio: Oh, and all my personal planets are Gemini, so no wonder we're just, who knows who's coming through? We're just out

[00:33:44] Ashley: here bobbing around. Okay. So Mole is a type of, it's like a sauce, and it comes from, The Nok language, which is the language [00:34:00] of the Aztec Empire and the language of the Noah people, which is the largest ethnic group in Mexico, and it's believed that Molay comes from Oaxaca, which is known as the Land of Seven Moles, or it, some people think it comes from the state of Puebla, which is right next door to Oaxaca.

[00:34:20] So there's different kinds of moles, but every family has like their own variation of their molay. And so the word molay is so okay, you might think, oh, I've heard of Molay. It's like guacamole. No, guacamole is not really a molay. It's just A sauce made of avocados. So in that way, it's not the same as what we're talking about, but it is like a sauce, but it's different.

[00:34:43] So don't worry about guacamole, that's not what we're talking about. Gu Oh, I love a guac. There is a green mole, but it's not guacamole. It's different. So traditionally it's made with chilies, but when the conquistadors came and People came from Spain, they started using [00:35:00] garlic and different kinds of herbs and spices and mixed it in there.

[00:35:04] So now it's a little different, obviously than it was a thousand years ago, but sounds freaking delicious. So I really like some right now. So a lot of the time people use it for enchiladas. It can be used like a meat sauce, like it's dressing meat. But it looks really good.

[00:35:18] So here's a couple different kind of moles. There is mole po bono. I'm sorry, I don't speak Spanish. I apologize. No, you're doing great. Okay. Thank you. This is famous. This is like a chocolate mole. So it gets, it's a dark color and it's a very rich flavor and it's your favorite. Really?

[00:35:37] Mauricio: I love, Ooh. Because cacao comes, it is of Mexico. It's of, it's a meso American, it's a sacred meso American plant. Like Gods are born of it. Yes. So it just, it, you can taste that. It's meant to be in the Mok.

[00:35:52] Ashley: I love it. And sometimes it's used like you just said, like Mexican for Mexican chocolate.

[00:35:58] And I always remember [00:36:00] learning this in Spanish class when I was like in sixth grade that the Aztec people had this like a ca cow drink. And it wasn't till I think I'm gonna get terrible dates. I've said that before on here. I think it was like the 17 or 18 hundreds. So people made it sweet.

[00:36:17] It wasn't sweet. And it was always like a sacred thing, like you were just saying. It wasn't like just chocolate. It wa it was really bitter, but it was a sacred ceremonial thing. So people drink it during rituals, so

[00:36:30] Mauricio: Yeah. If you, yeah, because it is entheogenic. So it does have entheogenic properties in that it's like, It, it opens you up to the world of the spirits.

[00:36:39] And that was like a huge thing for Aztec culture. That's like what all the psych sacrifices were about. It was like a very interesting theme. Just like not, I'm not gonna Pop your or interrupting for too long. But it's a very interesting theme. It's like the, hum. It's like these, the more human sacrifice was occurring, the more separated from the [00:37:00] gods, the culture, what that the culture felt.

[00:37:03] And so like these mass populous sacrifices were like these big shows to like, to show that the leadership the politicians were still. Expressing the will of the gods and not their own to the populace. But then, we also know that throughout mezzo America, these huge civilizations were just suddenly abandoned by people.

[00:37:26] And ancient translated writings and things suggest that it was that it is, it was always a part of ancient meso American knowledge that the further you get from the natural world, the closer to collapse you. Become, I

[00:37:42] Ashley: mean, it only makes sense though, like that is so true and oh my God, I love that.

[00:37:48] And you think of all these, and I don't think it's only in Meso America, but you do think of it. When you think of Meso America once conquistadors came and in other parts of the world, similarly, people were like, [00:38:00] oh shit, this is it. You know what

[00:38:02] Mauricio: Yeah. They were like, it was, yeah.

[00:38:03] They were like, oh, this is the end of the world. And it was, this is the

[00:38:06] Ashley: end of the world and it's the end of their world because, it's the year 14 something. They're like, we don't

[00:38:11] Mauricio: know anybody else. And it's like we think of it as like the, as. The imposition of, we associate the imposition of monotheistic religion.

[00:38:21] But we don't necessarily understand what that meant because Americans, indigenous Americans exist. In a living world. The, they had not forgotten that the world was alive. That the air Yeah. That we breathe is alive. That the world that we exhale is a, that the air we exhale is the spirit.

[00:38:41] That we are also contributing to the world. That we are this interconnected conglomerate, of different beings and then, You like bring, then impose this religion that like, no, like the mat, the material world is evil. Yes. You must worship this [00:39:00] fertility God, a pin to the like crossroads in the sterile heavens not allowed to return to the like starry heavens the underworld, but also not allowed to descend into the earth.

[00:39:13] Or to to, so it's like this whole, it's a whole thing. We can obviously go on a whole tangent on that, but food is magic, plants are magic, and they remind us that we are of the earth.

[00:39:24] Ashley: Yes. Oh my God. And I just think, sorry. And Mo is fantastic

[00:39:28] Mauricio: for that. Yes.

[00:39:30] Ashley: You just made me think of also the fact that like these people.

[00:39:36] Most of these people in animus societies Mesoamerica being a very also animous society before this, they were then told oh, you know how you guys think everything has spirits? No, that's not true. Everything is just stuff and like, all you need to worry about is being a girl person when you die.

[00:39:53] Can you imagine the mind fuck that is? Yeah. You're like, wait a minute. What?

[00:39:57] Mauricio: Yeah. That doesn't make any sense.

[00:39:59] Ashley: I know. You're like [00:40:00] no, but like the water is and it's like, All of these people are seeing things that they're like, no, I know this is a lie. Yeah, look at that

[00:40:06] Mauricio: stream.

[00:40:07] Yeah. Yeah. It's like they, these are the being, and I know this is a theme for on your channel, like being visited by beings, by spirits, whether they're ancestral or not, is something that when you are of that world occurs more regularly. Yes. It wouldn't have been unusual and suddenly Plant spirits or ancestors or demons, like

[00:40:30] Ashley: Yes.

[00:40:30] And now it's a bad thing. Yeah. And it's something to be frightened of and it's and it

[00:40:36] Mauricio: disempowers the population. It makes, they were forced to assimilate to ca into Catholicism, but yet their skin tone being close to that of the earth. Made them victims of white supremacy simultaneously, they would nev they were never going to be the Spanish.

[00:40:55] No. And that was a large, largely about, the creation of [00:41:00] Mexican culture. That is largely what that was about. The assimilation of indigenous practices and developing a. An identity that was separate from Europe and yet still mostly benefits white-skinned people that like myself. This is something that I've thought a lot about being a white-skinned Mexican person.

[00:41:17] It's real. It's totally real. It is.

[00:41:20] Ashley: And to be, and I always think to be told that like you are the wrong looking person. In your own country, you're like, but I come from, yeah, it doesn't make sense. It's like I come from like only the audacity like, oh no. I know that you have lived here and your ancestors have been here for thousands upon thousands of years, but you are, the way you look and who you are is wrong.

[00:41:47] And you should probably wish that you would look like me. And it's like part

[00:41:52] Mauricio: of that's, yeah. And that is a huge part of Mexican culture to this day. Like I have relatives that say shit like that. It's not so much [00:42:00] anymore. But when I was a kid and I'd always felt really fucked up and I didn't really, obviously didn't understand it as well until I was older and I was like, wait a minute.

[00:42:09] This is actually very, this is a very, this is by design.

[00:42:13] Ashley: Yeah, it all is. And I know, I have on my especially on my like Jamaican side of my family, it's similar. Like I have, my mom has cousins who are like, oh, like they just wanted to marry white people because they wanted light-skinned kids.

[00:42:27] It's but you're not light-skinned. Who cares?

[00:42:31] Mauricio: It's white supremacy is gonna hold on to power, however it canned, right?

[00:42:35] Look at where we are now. All these I know fucked up laws and like men throwing tantrums in target,

[00:42:44] Like the death grows. But at the same time, it's really scary because people are gonna be put to harm's way and like it's a hole. It could go really ugly, but again, it's just They know they're obsolete. That's why they're

[00:42:54] Ashley: acting. I know. It's just, it's so dumb. Okay, I'm gonna also talk about another [00:43:00] mole.

[00:43:00] Oh my God. I love talking to you. This is so fun. Go off into tangents about white supremacy

[00:43:08] Mauricio: lying. It's fine.

[00:43:10] Ashley: I love it. Everything's great. Okay, there's another mole called Mole Colorado, which is also from Oaxaca. And this is a, did I skip one? Yeah, but I will go back. This is a red colored mole that's based in blistered.

[00:43:24] Tomatoes. It includes raisin sesame. Ooh, that sounds a little sweet. That's nice. Raisin sesame seeds and sweet spices such as cinnamon CLOs and all spice bees. And it's usually used with enchiladas. That's a very good, I'm like, yeah, that sounds delicious. Ooh, now I'm, I wanna go to Oaxaca just to go on a, like a mole tour.

[00:43:44] I'm sure they have something like that.

[00:43:47] Mauricio: Molen.

[00:43:48] Ashley: Yes. That sounds delicious. Yes, drink a little bit. No problem. Okay, we got Mole Negro. This is the Waka [00:44:00] Oaxaca. I'm sorry I said it wrong. This is the Oaxaca. I know. I was gonna say it wrong too. I was like, don't say it wrong. No, won't say Oxycon on.

[00:44:07] That's what I wanna keep saying. I know it's wrong. Answer to Mole. Polanco and features also features chocolate, however, the name implies it's a lot darker and more intensely flavored than mole Polanco, and it uses. Hoya Santa, which is a medicinal herb with a unique flavor to give it a distinct flavor.

[00:44:32] And in Oaxaca it's considered one of the most complicated and difficult moles to master.

[00:44:38] Mauricio: Yeah. They're really, they're actually very, when they're done traditionally, they're very complex.

[00:44:43] Ashley: Yes. And in the video I watched and I put the link in the show and went, it takes this woman hours like to, after she just grills and takes all these seeds out, and it takes her hours to like simmer this mole. This is like a serious

[00:44:55] Mauricio: process. If there's a movie that you and your community are [00:45:00] interested in watching that kind of romanticizes this, these intensive, these labor intensive processes of making Mexican food. Like water for chocolate.

[00:45:08] Is the really beautiful movie. It's originally a novel, a Spanish novel by Laura Escobel, who is, it was translated into English, so it's available. And it's like this this woman living in Mexico and making these dishes in her, and it's. Very magical. It was magical realism. Her emotion. Her flavor.

[00:45:27] All of the dishes and all, there's all these experiences that happen to the people that eat them when she's like in love or when she's sad or like all these things. It's a really, yeah, and they come with recipes each chapter is a recipe.

[00:45:39] Ashley: Yeah. Ooh. All right. I'm gonna put a link to that too. It's a movie,

[00:45:42] Mauricio: Either read the movie or you can, or watch the movie. Or read the book. Read the book.

[00:45:45] Ashley: I'll find that. And we'll link to that too. And then we have, okay. Got Mole Verde. And this is another Oaxaca Mole and it's bright green in color and. It's not guacamole. It starts with, [00:46:00] it can be started with a spice mix or a paste.

[00:46:02] And this is fresh, so it's, it uses a lot of fresh herbs and greens, including cilantro, parsley, spinach, and lettuce. Ooh, I love anything with spinach on it. And they use green chilies and pumpkin seeds for a body. Ooh, I like that. And then Tomas, give the sauce a bright tartness. And then we have, and I'm not gonna be able to say this, but I'm do my Best Mole Aldo.

[00:46:29] I sound so American Aldo

[00:46:32] Mauricio: for a drink. Love. Okay. To have on a yacht. It sounds That's what that sounds like. Oh yeah. I know.

[00:46:39] Ashley: This is a type of mole from area around Mexico City specifically Sam Pedro. I can't, okay. Okay. I'm sorry. So sorry. I can't say this. A T o c p a n where 60% of the moles consumed in Mexico are actually produced.

[00:46:56] This mole includes fire roasted tainos, onions, and garlic, along [00:47:00] with sweet spices and a variety of chilies. However, it's most distinguishing feature is a generous amount of blanche almonds which give it a, the mole a sweet flavor. Okay. The lady in the video that I watched, that I put in she was talking about how there's a lot of pre-packaged moles and you can buy the spices in various Hispanic markets.

[00:47:21] And you can buy them as dry ingredients. She even now makes her own dry ingredient. And it just, it was very cool and I was very happy for this woman. She was so happy. She just oh, and that lady in the video, she won. A contest in Oaxaca for the best mole in Oaxaca. So she's cool.

[00:47:38] That's some cred. Yeah, she's got like street cred for her mole. It's serious. And like I said, she has the arm strength of 2200 pound men probably. Like she is. Yeah, she is a strong auntie and I love her. So now is the point in the show where I plug myself and then we'll talk about other stuff. If you [00:48:00] enjoy this show, you can give us five stars on whatever it is that you're listening to it on.

[00:48:05] And if you wanna follow me, it's dying with a Divine on Instagram and we're dying with a Divine on Facebook. And if you really like it you can, or you wanna give me a tip or you think that? Oh, you can gimme a tip there. I forgot about that. There's a link in the show notes. Yeah, if you want, feel free.

[00:48:21] Gimme a dollar. I'm good. And if you have any suggestions or comments or constructive critiques, feel free to email me at Dine with the Divine pod@gmail.com anytime I'm here okay, next we're gonna get into a little bit, not super intense about it, but we're talking about a little bit about perfume and spiritual stuff.

[00:48:40] So I'll start this off by, I was looking a little bit into the history of perfume, cuz there's a lot going on there. So the first they, one of the first documented perfume makers was a woman chemist named to Putti. Yes. And she was her. She wrote all [00:49:00] her, formulations on a tablet and they found it in Mesopotamia from Modern Mesopotamia.

[00:49:07] And she was apparently the perfumer at the time she was doing it. And a lot of different societies, ancient Egypt ancient Rome, they were using all these things at the time, mostly for ritual. And I know Marito, you're very in touch with your spirit. And do you find that like making you told us that amazing dream you had, so duh.

[00:49:28] But like also like when you make your formulations, is it like something that you're inspired, you feel like you're inspired by, like spirit to do or something? You just, you smell these different, like what's your process almost I don't know if that's a secret. I don't know.

[00:49:44] Mauricio: It's not so much a secret.

[00:49:45] I, okay. I'll be all. The I. Okay. I frequently say that as, as much as I have ideas of things [00:50:00] that I want to make there certain ideas will. Shout more loudly at me for attention and come together in my mind a little more easily. And I do think that that largely is, does have to do with.

[00:50:21] The way that I think, as I said, I'm, I have quite a few personal planets in Gemini, mercury, Venus and my Moon are all conjunct in Gemini. In the second house which is actually the house of tourists. And I'm a TAUs, so it's it's all very making, I like making things, I like creating things I like.

[00:50:37] Coming up with varieties of things. And so a lot of my childhood and my teenage years was spent learning about a cultism and all of the different facets of it and herbs and anything really, anything I could get my hands on, I was trying to learn and read and like at some, at one point I totally thought that cuz I was raised Catholic, Mexican.

[00:50:58] I totally thought cuz my [00:51:00] church in my town Was right across the street from the library. So I would go to the library and I'd sneak into the sections on the adult section. I was like a little kid. Yeah. Looked at the books on like witchcraft and demons and like these things that like I knew I wasn't supposed to be looking at.

[00:51:14] So I totally thought that God was watching me deal seat watching me and I still did it. Cause that's how I am. So I now, I. Feel I created a foundation of knowledge and I also am constantly reading. There's so many cool new authors now that are writing about occultism, the occult, the kind of a revival of witchcraft and occult.

[00:51:37] Herbalism is really, is big right now, and it's a really cool time to be alive, right? Like we have these old books like Agrippa and whoever else, but at the same time we have new people. Writing and researching and teaching. And so a lot of my fragrances are meant to accomplish something. But I don't always know what that is [00:52:00] until I've been working on it.

[00:52:01] So like the fragrance, one of the fragrances I just released called Bramble is a rose

[00:52:07] Ashley: fragrance smell freaking amazing, by the way. Jesus Christ. Yeah. I'm so glad you got along. I wanna drown in it.

[00:52:15] Mauricio: That's she's personal anointment and she is like the shrine of the self. But when she was originally inspired by Roses that grow ro actually raspberries pardon of me that grow in the redwood forest that I would grow camping in when I was a kid.

[00:52:31] And I'll still go camping there as an adult cuz it's still available. And these raspberries, these wild berries grow along the creeks and along the roads. And I used to pick them with my sisters and like I just have these very intense summer memories of the redwoods and the sun and the.

[00:52:47] Raspberries. And all the roses that would be growing in the shadows. And now as an adult. Cuz my research and my interests and fascinations, I now know that Roses and sisters are cousins. Roses and berries are cousins. They're [00:53:00] berries, raspberries, blackberries are of the Rose Sea family.

[00:53:03] They fall within. Within the kingdom. Or kingdom I should say, of or Empire of Rose since they're so badass. But when I was making making bramble all these oil, all these other botanical spirits were like me. One that was really big that I wasn't, I was kinda like, why?

[00:53:21] Acacia or Cassie is another name for it. And Oh yeah. I really love the smell of it. It's also one of the species is a source for gum Arabic. Which is a very, okay. Very super, super important tree. A tree of life, which a world Yeah. To different cultures, but especially in Egypt the mother of the gods gavee birth to the god's beneath anac tree, beneath the solar, because they have these these soul, these like sun looking flowers.

[00:53:48] They like little and they're thorned and. Smell really beautiful and the resin is really nourishing. When people harvest one of the gum Arabic species, they subsist on that gum for [00:54:00] days they eat and that's all they need. And they like do ritual and dance and celebrations and stuff. And so this very, these very goddess Botanical species started to come in and they were like, we're gonna be in this.

[00:54:13] And it just really ended up being this very goddessy Venus fragrance.

[00:54:18] Ashley: Yeah. Wow. That's so cool. I love how these you're so connected to these planned spirits that they're just talking to you.

[00:54:26] Mauricio: I fi it's a little, sometimes I'm like, I find, I do find, Gemini, find myself. Guess I'm like, am I just like inserting this? Am I just inserting it? But then if I remove it, it's like wrong. Yeah. Yeah. It's It. I, as I've gotten older, it's certainly become a little easier to not necessarily acknowledge spiritual messages, but more integrate them. I'm less worried about where they're coming from.

[00:54:51] So there's, I feel like there's a lot of an obsession on like where something's coming from, where a message. Coming from like what Spirit is like over your shoulder [00:55:00] and being like, and it's who knows? Yeah. For me then thanks and I, if it's a spirit that I'm meant to develop a relationship with and there's offerings involved and relationship building.

[00:55:09] But yeah, that's, it's in my process is very organic. But at the same time, pretty like meticulous, like I was trained by a classically trained perfumer. My mentor, Inika Ruland, who's a fantastic perfumer, her brand Inika perfumes are really beautiful and elegant. She taught me everything I know about modern perfumery techniques.

[00:55:28] Because when I started, I was really all natural. I was only really working with whole essential oils. So now I can reconstruct the smell of different botanical species, which I've done for the international union. For the conservation of Nature's red list project, I reconstructed the sense of an endangered magnolia, an endangered orchid, a black.

[00:55:48] Blackston Vim the Chinese, what the Chinese Orgi that herald's the spring festival. And it was this beautiful scent. But these I feel as though my [00:56:00] relationship and my fascination with these plants and these spirits and these concepts, I think are how they like spin together inside of this, inside my mind or however, whatever, however you want to conceptualize the container.

[00:56:12] Ashley: Wait, let's go back to what you just said. You ex okay. You took, you got this smell for the, which flower did you just

[00:56:20] Mauricio: talk about? Oh, so the orchid was it was, oh, what was it called? Cymbidium sinensis. Okay. I remember that because the sy, I was like, Ooh, like teeth. It's this really beautiful black orchid called the, like the orchid that heralds the spring festival because it Okay.

[00:56:37] Have a Chinese, like it has a Chinese name and Yeah. Yeah. I am. Y you were great with the Spanish and with the, but I am not going to try Chinese inside mind. That is the translated name. That's okay. And then the Magnolia was a Japanese magnolia, so both of these species are endangered.

[00:56:56] What the red list does is categorize, assess, and [00:57:00] categorize botanical and animal species. Or their current status are they threatened? Okay. Are they endangered? Are they actually, we are not concerned about them at the moment. And so I utilize that as a professional resource to when I determine my, like workbench, like what materials I use in, or what essences or botanical species I work with, yeah. The way of framing it. And I don't I, I will not. Utilize extracts of endangered species or threats. And that means I don't, I can't use real vanilla. I can't use real Oh. Rather, I won't. Yeah. And it's not that I don't want to support the people that make their livelihoods off of harvesting vanilla.

[00:57:44] Or caring for her as she grows, or, obviously all these, the plants are different. But I don't, I even less I want to participate in the consumption of these beings that Yeah. Are whose ability to reduce future ancestors is being [00:58:00] compromised. I don't, I like to frame it as burying my weight on this side end of the scale.

[00:58:05] That's

[00:58:05] Ashley: beautiful. That's awesome. Good for you. I love that lot people can

[00:58:10] Mauricio: do other things and there are sustainable sources for these endangered species, and there's a lot really cool work being done to protect the pe, the species, and the communities that depend on the species and live with the species.

[00:58:20] And also, like it's an issue that the communities that say harvest frankincense can't access frankincense because of poverty. Like how does it make sense that the Catholic church can. Burn through literally 50 metric tons of frankincense, resin or Christmas mask. Damn. But other people that are of the culture to whom frankincense is sacred can't Wow that.

[00:58:56] That's not, I'm not interested in participating in that. [00:59:00] Oh,

[00:59:00] Ashley: that's, So speaking of that, I was actually gonna read this other wild number cuz that's really wild. Just for Christmas. Damn. That's crazy. And I love Frankenstein, don't get me wrong. Yeah. But I, it smells amazing.

[00:59:13] Mauricio: But all there's just so much, there's just a lot.

[00:59:16] It's just something that people can money off of. People use the resin for medicine, but the essential oil is like what everybody's obsessed with right now. Yeah. Even though it takes so much more plant biomass to create an essential oil than it is. To shave a little bit of resin in a cup of wine.

[00:59:30] Yeah. Level marketings have multi-level marketing companies. Essential companies have their people out there being like, drinking sense will cure your cancer or whatever. Oh my god. Crazy claims. And it's just what about the trees themselves? Yeah. First and foremost, what about the people?

[00:59:49] Ashley: That's, no. Okay, we're gonna get back to this in a second also. All right. No, stop. Don't say sorry. You're amazing. And everything you say makes me think deeper about something else. [01:00:00] Cause I'm, you say, I'm like, but wait, we also have to ask you about this and we're gonna get to our story eventually, I promise.

[01:00:05] But we're the other thing that I read Another group of people who did not care about sustainability were the Romans, the ancient Romans at all. They didn't care. They didn't care at

[01:00:16] Mauricio: all. They worshiped Mars. I guess what? Yeah. And not even a fully developed version of that really Val like energy, like it's, very, yeah.

[01:00:25] That type of energy. But it's, doesn't have to be that way.

[01:00:29] Ashley: No, the ancient Romans didn't give a fuck. So they were out here, so they, okay. It was estimated that they used about 2 2800 tons of important frankincense and 550 tons of Mera a year, and they were just, and they were using these in their bathhouses to scent the water and embody care items such as bombs, oils, and perfumes.

[01:00:52] That's a lot. Yes. And then, oh, some Romans such as Pliny the elder who wrote something, I can't remember. [01:01:00] They.

[01:01:02] Mauricio: Say that again? No, go on,

[01:01:03] Ashley: go on. No, I'm sorry. They condemned the use of perfumes because while the opulence, because of the opulence in wastefulness, and while Romans while Rome fell, such luxuries were banned and perfumes were not popular again until for hundreds of years.

[01:01:18] Yeah. Because it was like a little

[01:01:19] Mauricio: ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I if you, our literal government buildings are designed after these oleic structures. No, like it's wild, and here we are making a bunch of shit that doesn't need to exist. Yes. I, it just really goes back to perfume is made out of either living beans like plant.

[01:01:45] Or animals. But we mo I most to modern perfumers do not use animal ingredients.

[01:01:51] Ashley: Yeah. I know, like for Musk and stuff, people have recreated it.

[01:01:55] Mauricio: Yeah. So I'll utilize the synthetic like I use a synthetic exhibit in my demo [01:02:00] fragrance. Because it, it's like this very like sensual, like kind of sexy, stinky scent.

[01:02:06] Yeah. Really cool. And it's really beautiful, but I don't want to Shake a cage to make. I know. Cat excrete it's, or I don't wanna do that. Yes. I wanna, it's also gross, like suffering involved and I mean that, yeah. So many things. We eat so much, we consume so many things that have the energy and the auras of suffering attached to them.

[01:02:26] And we But yeah, I'm like, just not, that's not surprising. And it feel, it's like such an, it's an interesting parallel to Yes,

[01:02:36] Ashley: it's, yeah. It's very, it's a lot.

[01:02:39] Mauricio: It, what goes to show what hap like what can happen when you separate something from the people that understand it?

[01:02:47] Ashley: 100%.

[01:02:48] I see that all the time. There's so much. Unfortunately, especially when it comes to sustainability, there's knowledge that has been lost or knowledge that we just don't [01:03:00] listen to because it's not coming from the people that we deem are like important or the p Yeah, or like knowledgeable. It's this, it's always, and it's always like a very sweet auntie.

[01:03:08] It's like that auntie doesn't know everything and she doesn't have a doctorate in blah blah, but it's yeah, but this knowledge has been passed down to this auntie for like thousands of years. So why are you telling this lady that she doesn't know what she's talking about because she doesn't have a doctorate?

[01:03:24] Like that pisses me off. Yeah.

[01:03:25] Mauricio: Oh yeah. That's that is, that's like a disease that saturates every so many aspects of our reality, the way the world, yes. That we live in or like an herbalist with ancestral knowledge and training who understands body systems and is. Understands spirit understands that there's different types of diseases that afflict people in different ways, but we prioritize this like very sterile reductive way of diagnosing people like that is, but that this reductive, sterile [01:04:00] way of understanding things exists across the board, right?

[01:04:05] Yes, humans are reduced to numbers. Whatever spiritual concepts are reduced mythologies, spiritual beings are reduced to demons, whatever. That's

[01:04:14] Ashley: always how it is. This is completely off topic, but if there is a group not a group, but for hundreds of years because of slavery in the United States, they had granny mis wives, which were usually women in black communities who were delivering babies.

[01:04:32] Cuz they just knew because someone don't want, they apprentice with the other lady who delivered babies who apprentice with the other lady. And they weren't able to go to the hospitals. They didn't have money for that. And then come like the 1950s, the American government was like, actually, you guys can't do this anymore cuz you're not nurses and doctors and real midwives.

[01:04:50] It's yeah, but they, and I don't remember the stats, but their like infant mortality rate was like very low. Their maternal mortality rate were [01:05:00] very low because they just had that knowledge. But then they were literally not allowed to practice after the fifties because they weren't. Certified and they didn't.

[01:05:09] And they were like you're not a doctor. Yeah. But they had the knowledge. And it's so sad that we do this in so many aspects of our world that everybody, don't get me wrong, college is great if you wanna go to college, congratulations. That's no problem. But there's so many different ways to know and understand things so it's just sad that we discount people because they Yeah.

[01:05:29] Mauricio: And I, I can imagine that. The mortality rate probably increased. Yeah, it did. No, that's, that is a real disease that afflicts this country though. And so it's, yeah, it's, but it, yeah, it's very frustrating. It's, oh, Maurizio, what are we gonna do? The people who know what they're doing, people that know what to do, people that care about the people that they're trying to serve, [01:06:00] but.

[01:06:02] These other systems are prioritized.

[01:06:08] Ashley: Yes it's very frustrating. Okay.

[01:06:10] Mauricio: Yeah, and it's, it's more than just people being prior, people are denied access to.

[01:06:15] Ashley: That too. Exactly. There's so many issues. So also speaking of this is a little, this is, I'm not gonna go too much more into this history thing, but the end of the history thing is like we said, in for Europe at least After the Romans, people were like, we don't need to deal with perfume anymore, cuz the Romans were doing the most right.

[01:06:32] But then like India and China, they were using it for different things. And what I think is so nice is that a lot of Chinese and the ancient Chinese even put perfume in their ink. So when they wrote things, it's smelled nice. I love that. Isn't

[01:06:46] Mauricio: that cool? Yeah. And imagine and then imagine I find I won't go into this tangent too much, I promise.

[01:06:52] That's okay. No, it's fine. This is a good example of how scent can be worked into a magical practice. Like [01:07:00] I read I'm still making my way through it. A book on fu Tasman, so like Daoism and how they Create

[01:07:06] Ashley: Yes. I'm actually about to read that book. I just ordered it, I think is this, it's by Bebe Wen.

[01:07:11] Mauricio: It's about, it's by, I'll get you the author. That's fine. You can see if it's the same one. But it's just, it's like it's by, it is by, it is, it's, yeah. She,

[01:07:22] Ashley: and she's a very nice person. Yeah.

[01:07:24] Mauricio: Cool. And I'm like and honestly reading it, like also filled in some like structural gaps in terms of like how I make perfume.

[01:07:32] I'm okay Makes sense. Yeah, I don't give out too much of the book, but it's there's so many beautiful ways of that, of that the interweaving of energies is illustrated and expressed in that tradition and that will tradition as well. So I, I just think that I just love stuff like that, like fragrance and introducing plants into these different magical mediums.

[01:07:56] It's all part of our relationship with them.

[01:07:58] Ashley: Yes. Oh, [01:08:00] I love that so much. And the Chinese also used perfume for disinfection, which we know that a lot of plants, they also were dis disinfectants. And purity. And they also, they believe that some perfumes can help a Ridder room of disease, which makes sense.

[01:08:16] Some plants are like disinfectants in aerial.

[01:08:19] Mauricio: You, yeah. Oh, totally. Especially the aromatic friends that were youlen cls and stuff. That's where after Bath Beam came from, yes. Now we think of everything as a toiletry, but originally it was the that or the root of that is the cleansing powers of plants.

[01:08:37] Thematic plants.

[01:08:38] Ashley: I love that. So then they started handing, using as perfumes later on. For personal use. But they also, they, but they're oriental. I don't think we say that word anymore. I'm sorry. It was in my notes. But fragrances that come from that part of the world, like China, they're heavily focused on with herbs and spices which they also use a lot in their [01:09:00] medicine.

[01:09:00] That's why they would use it in a. Medicinal in a medicinal capacity also, which is pretty cool. And then in medieval Europe, I don't know why I'm laughing about this, but first of all, in medieval Europe, the crusaders, of course, they went to the Middle East and they were like, brought back all their stuff and they're like, let's use this.

[01:09:19] Of course they did. So then they also found out how to distill rose petals, which is really. I know, and maybe this is wrong, but I know like Bulgarian rose oil is like very expensive. I know this from 90 day fiance. But I know that distilling rose petals is it seems like a big business.

[01:09:40] And we talked about distillation before, but

[01:09:42] Mauricio: Yeah, it is, it's a lot. It is. They grow very well in Bulgaria. But, Actually it was the Arab culture that mastered the distillation of Rose and we still utilize their discoveries and the way that they, their technology to this day. Wow. [01:10:00] So yeah, it was, they're as their props to them and they're beautiful roses, but the techniques were developed in the Middle East.

[01:10:08] Interesting.

[01:10:09] Ashley: And then during the bubonic plague they would fill those bird masks that you've ever seen with spices because people were dead everywhere and that was, it didn't smell very good. So then they made more perfumes in the 14th century and they, Marco Polo, who went all the way to Asia and he came back, he was bringing back all this stuff.

[01:10:28] He's Hey guys, we found more good smelling stuff in other countries. And then what else happened? So then like in the 15, 16 hundreds, it seems like it started to be more of a fashion thing to have perfume than a medicinal or like something like that. In Europe at least. And they were getting all sort, they were getting some of the stuff like we talked about from animals, but they don't really do that anymore.

[01:10:52] And because bathing was such an unpopular practice back then, people relied on fragrances to make them not stink all the [01:11:00] time. And they were wearing these big wigs and it's like a whole thing. Yeah. So that's that part. Yeah.

[01:11:06] Mauricio: That's her. So it was actually like Catherine did Medici around the, in the 15 hundreds like you were saying.

[01:11:12] She's, who began to popularize fragrance again? Perfume. She had a corporate Yes. That she brought over from when she was a princess, before she was married. She had her humor and she brought him and he was also her court poisoner. Yeah.

[01:11:27] Ashley: Okay. That is in the show. The serpent queen, if you Yes, I really like the serpent queen.

[01:11:33] It's very good. Yes. Oh, that is so cool. And okay, people who do fragrances know all the poisons,

[01:11:42] Mauricio: For me, it's the same world now. I suppose we still have to understand poisons cuz like I need to, I follow regulations and guide the that are based in chemistry to keep people from having asthmatic attacks and ration yeah.

[01:11:56] Burns, chemical burns. But [01:12:00] they, distillation techniques would've been used to ex to extract medicines, to extract fragrance, to extract poisons. A lot of the witchcraft laws that were put into place in Europe, Encompass things like, so obviously they encompass things like poisoning, but also things like love potions and perfumes, which all, when again, they all fall in the same world.

[01:12:27] Ashley: Wow. Oh my God, this is so fascinating. And who knew like that? It was this intense of the situation. I love it. Yeah.

[01:12:35] Mauricio: Again, it's like we, our culture isn't, is not a perfume culture. Deodorant culture. Yeah. So you think of. Fragrance as like a toiletry. Yeah. The world remembered that it was like of the gods, yes. It was just like, ambrosia is we, when we make ambrosia, we think of something as an ambrosial. It's like sweet, fruity da. In reality, it was [01:13:00] like super toxic and poisonous because only the gods could consume it. It was like power plants and power creep beings. Power spirit.

[01:13:10] And perfume as magic is, it has the potential to bring someone out of sorrow, but we could also probably just as easily use it as a spell to wrap someone in sorrow. Yeah, it's not like that would be super difficult to do with per, with perfume or with magic.

[01:13:28] Yeah. It's, yeah, it's just a really, it's a really interesting how it's it's all within the same like globe, right? It's all Yes. And the spirits depending on how you wanna work with them.

[01:13:40] Ashley: Oh my God's so cool. So cool. Oh oh, we could go on for these knees. No the other.

[01:13:47] Okay. Really quick before we get this story, cuz I have to ask you this okay. You talked before about, you mentioned like MLMs and I always think like these, [01:14:00] all these not, I don't know a ton, but I know like young living and like doTERRA and stuff. How, okay. There's so much. They mass produce all this stuff and people love to buy it or whatever.

[01:14:10] And I love an essential oil, so I'm not putting myself, not in this category, but like how are they making all these things and not selling them for cheap, but you see these like a Jasmine oil and they'll be like, oh, this is a $15 Jasmine oil. But is it like, it's all synthetic. It must be though, right?

[01:14:27] Yeah. So

[01:14:29] Mauricio: companies like, so there's two parts to that. There are, there's a ton of adulteration that happens on the market. When you see like a jasmine oil that's 15 bucks, you can be sure that it's most likely, unless it's like jasmine oil in ho hoba oil. And maybe sometimes that's a little sketchy, like it says like really little letters that it's deleted in an oil. Yeah. That's still deceptive marketing. But if someone says like it's a jasmine oil. Or rose oil, and it's like you said, really inexpensive. It's [01:15:00] likely to have more likely be a perfume blend, to be a, or a jasmine accord, a blend of different natural or non-natural materials in order to get that smell.

[01:15:09] There the companies like the. Big ml, multi-level marketing, pyramid scheme kind of companies. Lot of the times they own farms that their products are grown on, or they like, own the distilleries that people in order to get paid have to take their plant mass to from their farms or from their land.

[01:15:30] Oh. In order to have it processed and prepared. And then they get paid according to how many, whatever pounds or kilos that they bring in. So that's a thing. So it's usually they own a step of the process or multiple steps of the process, if not the entire process. And also they own their third party certification.

[01:15:53] So oh more? Yeah, if you like, frequently if you look up like, we're this certified by this, and then you look up who [01:16:00] owns that company. It's the same company. I'm shocked. Yeah. Sketchy as fuck. Yes.

[01:16:08] Ashley: I'm mad. Oh my God. Get so

[01:16:10] Mauricio: fucked up. You're, it's obviously really difficult for people to find farmers themselves, connect with farmers directly.

[01:16:17] Or find essential oil people that are distilling essential oils locally as well. I am very fortunate to live somewhere that as populous as California is, it's still has a lot of plants. It's still, it's climate is Mediterranean, although we're also becoming a desert. Thanks to industrial processes, Jesus and people here are distilling essential oils.

[01:16:41] People are growing lavender in Napa that I can then use in my perfumes and source the lavender from France or, whatever. Yeah. So yeah, it's, it usually if a company has like a really. Like a kind of an army style distribution process.[01:17:00] They own their sources, or at least parts of the sources.

[01:17:04] Geez. Which Wow means that then it's like they have the potential to pay the people that live in the regions that they're sourcing these plants from. Very well. Do they say they do?

[01:17:16] Ashley: You're leaking all the secrets that we didn't

[01:17:20] Mauricio: know. I am the Pluto and Scorpio generation I worship spreading across.

[01:17:26] Yes.

[01:17:30] Ashley: Okay. Now we know all about that. I am suss now of all those, I don't use any of those companies with, I don't support any MLMs. I refuse that. Yes. It's really, it's sad. It's

[01:17:38] Mauricio: sad how much people are taking advantage of from. The harvesters to the people that are like the reps or, whatever they are.

[01:17:44] Yeah. They're like, who makes these companies see tons of money? They're reps. Yes. The reps aren't going around selling dozens of basin oils and boxes and whatever. No. They're sitting with them in their closets, in their [01:18:00] cars or whatever, yeah. Everyone, but like most of 'em probably.

[01:18:04] Ashley: We're mad about it, but

[01:18:05] Mauricio: Yeah. Yeah. Just it's people. In a room, in I think a responsible herbalist and like clinician or whoever practitioner would acknowledge that essential oils are the very tip of the health pyramid of the Phytotherapy pyramid. The base of the pyramid of health is food.

[01:18:26] The plants Yeah. Are primarily healing our foods. Yes. All the phytochemical constituents that come along with them, like turmeric as a food have tons of rich compounds that we can utilize, not, not literally tons, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. But many oil's also useful, but again, it's like we can, we are meant to consume.

[01:18:48] These beings is incorporate these beings into our beings in order to replenish ourselves in a specific way. And essential wills are really useful, but when they come with the cost that they do, I think they should be [01:19:00] considered precious. Yeah.

[01:19:03] Ashley: Oh my God, I'm fired up. Okay. I'm like so mad now. Oh my gosh.

[01:19:11] All right, so it's story time. Yay. We're gonna tell a story. We talked a lot about Oaxaca, we talked a lot about Mole. So where story comes to us from the Yucatan Peninsula, this is a myth, which is very exciting.

[01:19:25] It's very I just like the myth a lot. So you think of the Yucatan Peninsula to places people think about as Cancun and Tulum. Those are two places that are there. If you've never seen pictures of those places, look, they're gorgeous. Never been. But one day, no, I'm going

[01:19:40] Mauricio: into two weeks. Oh really?

[01:19:43] Yeah, my cousin, or actually my family's first destination wedding, even though we're from Mexico, I'm all my here. So yeah, I'm stoked to go to Cancun.

[01:19:52] Ashley: Nice. Have fun. Awesome. Okay, so here's our story. So there was this really nice village, [01:20:00] and in this village live, these two ladies, they were both very beautiful.

[01:20:04] One lady was Iban and her name actually meant sinner. And the other lady, what? Coel, we'll say Coel. And her name means good woman. So they were both beautiful. Okay, so this is a situation. And s Coel, she was like very virginal. Like she was, she wore white all the time. She didn't look at any boys.

[01:20:29] She didn't look at any girls. She was just to herself and she's I'm just like a perfect virgin queen. That was her thing. She walked around just I'm so great. Everything's great. the other woman. Was for the streets and she didn't have a problem with it. Oh my. It wasn't an issue. It's no problem.

[01:20:50] She was out here. She, she got, she was beautiful. She got the attention of a lot of suitors. They gave her stuff, she had sugar daddies. It wasn't a problem. She was out there with whoever [01:21:00] she wanted to be, and she wasn't ashamed of what she was doing. Nor should she have been. So the thing that you need to also know about Iman was she was super, super nice.

[01:21:10] Like she was super sweet and kind to everybody. She was always helping people who were poor or had less than her, and she was always helping. Oh, she would sell stuff that men gave to her to pay for food for people who didn't have enough food or, yeah. She's such a good person. Yeah.

[01:21:29] Mauricio: The cooler Robinhood.

[01:21:30] She had a good time ex.

[01:21:31] Ashley: Exactly. So like she was out here people were like, oh, she's out here like sleeping with dudes. But she was actually helping the community so shut up about it. Like she

[01:21:39] Mauricio: was doing such good sister doing judging. I'm just kidding. Exactly.

[01:21:43] Ashley: She was, yeah, because the other girl, what's kalil was just out there being like, Ugh, whatever.

[01:21:49] So Iman was out here helping people and Letz Koel, she was. Just rude. And people actually didn't like her, but they admired her [01:22:00] for being so like virginal and whatever. So she was a prude. Let's just say it. She was a prude. But she like looked down on people if they were poor or sick. She didn't like that she wouldn't touch any of those people like, like the way Eban was. So one day I guess people were walking around the village and people started smelling this like really good smell and they didn't know where it's coming from.

[01:22:21] They all directed to this one house and they realized it was Iman's house and they got in there and Iban was dead. And I know,

[01:22:33] It was so sad.

[01:22:34] Mauricio: Die. So it's funny

[01:22:36] Ashley: suck. Like the village hottie she was dead and it was terrible and everyone was so sad. But in all the sadness, everyone was like, oh no. She said, US Col was like, why does she smell so good though? I don't like that. She was like, She's she's dirty and I'm not dirty.

[01:22:55] So like she shouldn't smell but whatever. But Koal was like, you know [01:23:00] what, when I die, if she smells good, I'm gonna smell twice as good. People are just gonna be, they're gonna be just around me. Cuz they're like she smells so delicious. Okay, so then when it's time to bury Iman, all the poor people in the town, people who came from sick families or they were sick themselves, they held the funeral for her because she's the one who had been like, They're like you said, like they're Robinhood.

[01:23:24] She was helping them out and all the animals from the forest came to honor her.

[01:23:29] Mauricio: Yeah. Isn't that cute? Having a good time, being slightly darker. Everybody likes you. Sounds like she was, she deserved to smell. Have a fragrant afterlife.

[01:23:41] Ashley: Yes, and I was so happy. When they buried her, these beautiful flowers started to spring from her grave.

[01:23:49] And the flowers are also, they're actually called . It depend, tune, I dunno, I have to look. I'm probably not saying that but it's spelled X T A b e [01:24:00] n t u n. So these flowers, they're smelled, I think they're white and like vny, they seem they grew from her grave and they smelled delicious.

[01:24:08] And everybody's wow, this is amazing. After her being such a slut, like, how does she have all these dice flowers? So then of course time goes by and later on it's ko, she dies and everybody was like, oh, wow. They're like, wow. She died of virgin and she's such a good person.

[01:24:27] She never gave up her quote unquote purity or whatever people wanted to say. And then they buried her at an it stink. It smelled so bad. People were like, Ew, this is nasty. They probably dug her up and buried her outside town cuz they were like, we can't bury her in this town. It smells so bad. Oh

[01:24:49] Mauricio: yes. What an interest in story.

[01:24:51] I, I wanna please no, go ahead. No. No, I briefly looked up the, I looked up the name of the flower cuz it did sound familiar to me and it specific [01:25:00] species of marigold. Ooh. That or Morning Glory, not Marigold. Morning. Okay. Marigolds are also very important in meso America and Mexico, but they're different.

[01:25:10] I love marigolds. The Morning Glory are the ones that grow in the vines, and they're usually like purple leaf flowers, but these they're white, like you were saying, and they're we're very important to the Aztecs and some meso Americans, cuz their seeds are hallucinogenic psychotropic. And so missionaries would burn them whenever they saw them.

[01:25:28] Because obviously how, a plant having more authority and power to connect human people to the divine than they themselves was an affront the church.

[01:25:39] Ashley: Wow. Wow.

[01:25:41] Mauricio: At this beautiful smelling, she sounds very like underworld, goddessy to me, especially since those flowers bloomed from her grave.

[01:25:49] Yes.

[01:25:50] Ashley: That's how I feel too. And she just had a good soul. She was just a good person. So then, so Otz Koel died and she had that stinky grave. [01:26:00] And in death, apparently Otz Koel was like I guess she, she totally missed the mark. She didn't get it. She was like I guess it's cool to be, a whore.

[01:26:09] She did not get the point of what had happened. We've enjoyed

[01:26:11] Mauricio: 2023. Yes, exactly.

[01:26:16] Ashley: She missed it. So then she basically came back from the grave in a way as basically like a weird ghost. And she turned to ex, ex Tobe, became her name. And now she sits under the also going to mispronounce this.

[01:26:31] It's a specific kind of cactus called the Zaca. T Z A c a m A flower grows from it, this cactus. And she sits under this siba tree, I guess this is also where the cactus can grow. And she sits there and she combs her hair with the cactus and waits to seduce and kill men now. Cause she's bitter.

[01:26:58] Mauricio: Yeah. [01:27:00] And women love becoming ghosts in Mexico. My grandma used to tell me about seeing a bunch of 'em when she lived on the ranch like that she lived on there was like kinds of like ghosty women and they're like nightgowns floating around. Oh my God. I know they're mad. Yeah. They hold grudges, Mexican ladies, old grudges.

[01:27:19] They, that's

[01:27:20] Ashley: We know that Letz al turned extubation, she just held a grudge because she was like, I should have banged when I was alive. And then I didn't.

[01:27:28] Mauricio: She did have, and then she would've smelled great for while.

[01:27:31] Ashley: Yeah. And she would've had fun because she would've been banging and then she's damn, I stayed a virgin my whole life.

[01:27:36] This was stupid.

[01:27:38] Mauricio: Yeah. Now she gets comb her hair with a cactus under a tree, and her sister's like this, like psychedelic plant. I

[01:27:49] Ashley: know her sister is this wonderfully smelling psychedelic plant, and people are just enjoying their experience and she's just out here poking people and seducing and murdering them.

[01:27:59] Mauricio: I wonder what [01:28:00] happens to the men that she like. That she like, does whatever she does to you, because like my grandparents had all kinds of stories of spirits that would be on the roads and like one time my grandfather, I don't, this one might have been like more of a myth, like a whatever.

[01:28:14] But he like picked, he said that he heard this crying baby. He picked it up and it was like, he like was like, what the fuck? And he like picked it up and he like, It was, it's, I don't know what it said. It said something like, what are you doing out here? Silly. And it had teeth and it was, he was like, what the fuck?

[01:28:31] He was like, it was the devil. Threw it and ran home. Got home. But there's like my grandpa got up to his shit. I know. That's so scary tonight on the roads of Mexico being chased by like black dogs and

[01:28:49] Ashley: stuff. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. That's. I feel like that sounds just like Ghana. My dad's from Ghana and it's always some weird ass shit.

[01:28:58] Yeah. Seeing, yeah. [01:29:00] Seeing like floating ladies with no shirts on who have no legs and I'm like, what? He's yeah. In the middle of the night and then there was a guy with fish teeth and I'm just like, I don't,

[01:29:09] Mauricio: My, you know what my grandma used to ask me all the time before she passed was it was like a rhetorical question cuz she knew the answer.

[01:29:15] And she would be like, why do you think, why don't you think there are any spirits here? She's like, why aren't there spirits here? Because she would see, when she lives in Mexico, she would see. Yeah, which is probably where I got it from. Yeah, probably he's my maternal grandmother. And she was like, it's because even the devil's afraid of American.

[01:29:36] Ashley: Your grandma's a boss.

[01:29:41] Mauricio: She's right. She, yeah. Love

[01:29:45] Ashley: your grandma. Oh my God, she

[01:29:47] Mauricio: sounds awesome. She was, yeah, she all her, she had all kinds of stories and her sayings and jokes. Yeah. Aw,

[01:29:56] Ashley: I love that. Even the devil is, [01:30:00] she's right. I know. She was right. Oh gosh. Oh my God. That brings us to the end of this episode. This has been so fun.

[01:30:12] So Maurizio, just tell us where you want to be found on the internet and all that kind of

[01:30:20] Mauricio: stuff. So in that, Black hole. No, I'm just kidding. No it's a wild place. The internet, I know. I grew up, like I grew up at the beginning of the internet. Like when it first came out dial up the whole thing and Oh, honestly, like actually a of course on theme alar, my experience was largely like occult forums and stuff.

[01:30:39] So yeah, we're still on forums and things, but anyway, you can find me not on any Lowe's cause is on Instagram at Herb craft dot perfume. Or at Pedaled Serpent. That's my more kinda like personal one I suppose, where I do talk more about ecology and. [01:31:00] M Magic and also post memes and shit and whatever.

[01:31:03] The Herb Craft one is more perfume in my events where I'll be like talking about classes that I have coming up that are gonna be really fun that people should definitely come through if they're in the Bay Area, if they're visiting I may have some digital ones, so definitely keep your eye on my events page of my website for that, which is her craft perfumery.com.

[01:31:21] If you're interested in sustainability or sustainability in the fragrance industry, just as a topic, you can visit sustainable perfume.org, which is the website for the Coalition of Sustainable Perfume, which I co-founded with a group of other perfumers. And there we have like interviews with fragrance house people and ecologists, and a list of endangered species that are used in perfume that you can take a look at your products ingredient lists and see if they're.

[01:31:46] In there. If that's something that is of concern to you or you can email me questions about anything at mauricio herb craft perfumery.com.

[01:31:56] Ashley: Yay. And I'll put all those links in the show notes too. So people [01:32:00] wanna go check all that, all stuff out. You can oh my gosh, this has been the most fun.

[01:32:07] I love this. So thank you so much and do my little thank. Oh, of course. And I'll do my little last plug. So again, I'm dying with a divine on Instagram and dying with a Divine on Facebook. Like I said, you can give the show a five stars if you enjoy it and you can follow us an Apple, Spotify, whatever platform you listen to.

[01:32:30] Your podcast and if you have any questions, comments, concerns, please email me and dine with the Divine pod gmail.com If you wanna follow me, Ashley, I'm San at Sankofa hs. That's s A N K O F A H s and Sankofa Healing Sanctuary on Facebook. Again, REO. You have been awesome.

[01:32:51] Mauricio: Oh, you're awesome. This has been really fun.

[01:32:53] Yay.

[01:32:54] Ashley: Okay, so everybody, thank you so much for joining us for another week, and I'll see you next week and have [01:33:00] an awesome week. Thank you. Bye.