The Evil Eye, The Glare Known Around the World with Antonio Pagliarulo

Antonio

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[00:00:00] Ashley: Hello, everybody, and welcome to Dine with the Divine. I'm your host, Ashley, and together we'll be exploring the magical, the mystical, and everything in between. On today's episode, we're going to talk a lot about the evil eye, and a child of fortune. So, I hope everyone's having a fantastic day, and if you're not, I hope it gets better soon.

[00:00:24] So, today we have another fantastic guest. We have Antonio Pagliarulo, who, he writes regularly about spirituality, paganism, witchcraft, and the intersection of folk magic with popular culture and religion. Ooh, I love that. So, he has been published in the Washington Post, NBC News, New York Daily News, Religion News Service, and the Wild Hunt.

[00:00:49] The son of Italian immigrants, Antonio was schooled since childhood in the ways of Italian folk magic. As such, his practice draws from paganism, Roman [00:01:00] Catholicism, evil eye magic, and the tarot. Antonio holds a BA in Sociology from Purchase College, State University of New Jersey. I'm saying New Jersey because I live in New Jersey, and we were just talking about that.

[00:01:10] Of New York, New York. He lives in New York. Yay! Hi Antonio, how

[00:01:16] Antonio: are you? Hello Ashley, it's a pleasure to be here. How are you?

[00:01:18] Ashley: I'm good, thank you. So, I always ask people to start us off, how did your journey with spirituality start?

[00:01:31] Antonio: So how did it start? Well... It started because I, as you said in the introduction there I'm the child of immigrants, both of my parents are from Italy, they came here as teenagers.

[00:01:42] And my siblings and I grew up in the Bronx, in what was, you know, like a typical, what you would call a typical sort of two family home. We lived upstairs, my maternal grandparents lived downstairs, and they, you know, were from Italy and they spoke no English. And so, we grew up, my siblings and I grew up [00:02:00] always with...

[00:02:01] For instance, the evil eye, that was a big thing. My grandmother was always, she was known not only in the neighborhood, but in her town from, from Italy. She was one of the people who, if you thought you had the evil eye on you, if you had a, a run of bad luck, you had something happening, you couldn't get the job, the, you know, every relationship kept breaking up, you were tripping and falling, and your car broke down, and all this stuff would happen, they would call my grandmother and say, you know, I think I have malocchio, which is the evil eye in Italian and she would...

[00:02:28] You know, diagnose, and she would see if you had it, she would diagnose it, detect it, and then she would, you know, dispel it. And it was very common growing up to go downstairs and see bowls of water on the counter and on the kitchen and her olive oil and her spoon, and, you know, watching her sort of recite, you know, very quietly, these sort of, you know, these secret incantations and prayers.

[00:02:49] And we, of course, didn't know when, certainly I didn't when I was a kid, that this was anything sort of out of, really out of the ordinary, because my grandparents you know, they [00:03:00] practiced what, looking back, I can tell you, yeah, you know, there was a great deal of folk magic and, and what we call that today, but my grandparents, you know, would never have called themselves like witches or magical practitioners.

[00:03:11] They were Roman Catholic and they saw What they were doing as just what you did, you know, they have been raised, you know with these little rituals and things like that my grandfather made wine in the basement of our home and he did everything according to the moon, even with the garden he planted in the backyard you know, growing tomatoes and basil and things like that.

[00:03:30] He did everything according to the moon. He would even, once the barrels of wine were sort of done, he would move them up on shelves according to the phases of the moon. And as my mother likes to still tell the story, I was quite... A few days late when she was, you know, pregnant, you know, she, I should have been born somewhere like on the 7th or whatever or the 5th and I was born on the 13th of that month and she likes to tell the story that my grandfather kind of sat her down while she was sitting [00:04:00] there like, Oh my God, when's this kid coming out?

[00:04:02] He sat her down and said, yeah, it's not going to happen until the moon. You know, sort of reaches this particular phase, and that'll be around, and she always likes to say that he got it right around, you know, he, she, he would say the 12th and the 13th because it was the moon phase that was going to determine my birth.

[00:04:17] That was what he had been raised with as well. So, he and he was also very big on hand gestures. The you know, the power of gestures to not only ward away negativity, but to bring about. I remember if I had a sore throat, if I had a headache as a kid, he would, sit right next to you, or in front of you, and he'd tell you to do different hand movements, and he'd tell you to touch your thumb here to your middle finger, and then he'd tell you to turn your hands one way and point them up or south, and sometimes he would tell you to say things, but mostly it was these gestures that he would make that were that would bring about some sort of healing, and you know, of course, I remember they did work for us, so, Mm hmm.

[00:04:57] Looking back on it this was all very normal for [00:05:00] us. And, it, and I just loved every minute of it growing up. And then, and I of course, my siblings and I all went to a very private Catholic school in the Bronx. And very small, very small, not, not many, I think there were 23 kids in my class, literally from kindergarten to eighth grade.

[00:05:17] And, that was its own world, you know? And then, I then went to high school. here in Manhattan. And it was a public high school and it was like this, I can't even explain what it was like to go from Catholic school, 23 kids to this. I went to LaGuardia High School, so I went to the high school of performing arts in the city and we got there and it was this culture shock in a way because I had friends suddenly who were not like me at all.

[00:05:43] They were different faiths and cultures and ideas. I remember right away in the cafeteria and when I was sitting with friends and somehow we got on the issue of, you know, some of the things that I wore and I, you know, you'll see a lot of Italian people or Italian Americans [00:06:00] will wear things like the red horn and a lot of people ask if it's a pepper or something like that.

[00:06:05] Excuse me, it's the red horn, the cornicello or the mano cornuta, which is the, you know, the two horns. If you know, raise your index finger and your pinky up, you get the horns there. They're amulets. All of a sudden I had my friend Joshua, who was Jewish, said, Oh, yeah, you know, Ayin Hara, and he was talking about the evil eye.

[00:06:26] I had a friend who was Zoroastrian. She was talking about it. And all of a sudden, very young, I realized that, Wow, this is way beyond my house in the Bronx. Everyone was talking about this, you know, we were all talking about this thing called the evil eye and this negative energy that can really cause bad things.

[00:06:44] And... , it just had a different name, but it was, yeah. In all of these different cultures and all of these different faiths. And so that really, really it shook me in a good way and it just sort of woke me up and just to open my eyes in that sense to other things. And then [00:07:00] from there, I always, always loved anything to do with the occult.

[00:07:04] Mm-Hmm. You know, I was, you know, I was the one who got in trouble 'cause I brought in the, you know. The books that I wasn't supposed to bring and my nuns would confiscate them and call my mother and my mother was always cool about it. She would say, you got to give him back the book because he bought it with his own money.

[00:07:18] But, you know, he won't bring it into school. So I got my books back and she didn't. That's good. Yeah. And once I, you know, being a. I kind of conned my father into buying me a pack of tarot cards when I was like 10 or something. And I told him they were like math flashcards or something and he didn't know, you know, I still feel guilty about that.

[00:07:38] And she found them though, of course, because I tried to hide them like in the sock drawer or something. And I came home from school and she was like, so what are these? Want to talk about this? And, but I was, I always had a great love for the occult and anything spiritual really. And That, when I was in high school, and then I was in here, Manhattan I, I went to the library.

[00:07:58] You know, there was no internet when I was in high school, [00:08:00] so, I went to the library and started reading, you know, started looking up books about witchcraft, about magic, about, you know, paganism. And I found you know, Leo Martello's books on, you know, witchcraft, the old religion, and and just so many other books.

[00:08:16] And then from there, you know, it was... Years later, a few years later, it was, you know, Laurie Cabot's book, and then, you know, Christopher Penzack's book, and Judith Ellis, and all these, you know wonderful books that as I got older, I just kept following that path. And it's been my path ever since. It, it, there was never a time that it wasn't my path.

[00:08:37] It was just always my path. Yeah, and I feel glad about it. Yeah, I feel very, very blessed for that, because I think it's a wonderful path.

[00:08:47] Ashley: Yeah, me too. I think, first of all, I love that you conned your father into buying you this. Because that's totally something I'd have to do to my dad. Like, [00:09:00] if I was like, well it's educational and I'm going to learn, it's like hooked on phonics.

[00:09:04] My dad would be like, alright, I'll buy it. That

[00:09:06] Antonio: was what I basically did. I got a pack of tarot cards and at a bookstore in Manhattan, which at that time was, I believe, Doubleday Bookstore, and I'm dating myself a lot here. But and I Yeah, I literally told him, I still feel guilty about it, I told him they were like math flash cards or something and he was just like, you know, alright, you know, whatever, you know, sometimes fathers, my mother sometimes says, oh, the fathers are oblivious to things, and so she still says that about certain, sometimes, but yeah, I did con him into buying those cards, but like I said, she found them and I But she didn't mind, you know, like it wasn't like I got in trouble because it was something bad.

[00:09:43] She, we grew up with a lot of these mystical components that moved within the, you know, the sphere of Roman Catholicism. Mm hmm. You know, and, you know, even the thing with the evil eye. You're not, you know, the priest. Most of the priests, or most of them, [00:10:00] didn't like this idea of, you know, what do you mean your, you know, your grandmother's doing, you know, the evil eye, or all this stuff, or these, you know, certain candles that were lit certain herbs that were sort of, you know, you know chopped up and sort of, you know, mixed in with other things, and this was stuff that, to the church, was like, you know, well, what are you doing?

[00:10:18] You're not, so they still, you know, you're not supposed to do those things, but that was just kind of, you know, glossed over, and they did what, What they had always been doing. And it was Yeah, so it's not like I, I never got in trouble for well I got in trouble for conning my father to get the cards but not because of the cards, it was because I told him, I lied to him and told him I was getting the cards.

[00:10:37] That wasn't the way to go about it, yeah. No, my mother knew exactly what the cards were and all that stuff and she was just like, well, we're not going to talk about that, we're going to talk

[00:10:49] about that was Yeah, so we, it was it was very it was wonderful and very colorful and, and very powerful to grow up and a little bit sort of when I look back on it, [00:11:00] now I look back on it and can see that it was sort of daring in a way that we sort of did these things that, you know, sometimes, you know, the local parish priest didn't approve of, but there was a parish priest who absolutely came to my grandmother's door and my grandfather's door and asked her to do this.

[00:11:17] The evil eye for his nephew who could not get a job and, you know, was talking about this kind of stuff. So yeah, it was just all sort of built into this very spiritual sphere. And it was just always a part of it, of life for us.

[00:11:37] Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, we were just talking, like, I was talking with somebody else about this, too, how, like, there's a lot of...

[00:11:45] Things that we all do and it may be from your parents or just like your family, that we don't realize is like magic y or folk magic. Oh yeah, it's just like random stuff that you'll do. Like, [00:12:00] I remember my dad always used to throw holy water before we left the house. And I don't know why, but you just did it, so we just, so I just did it, for a long time.

[00:12:08] Antonio: Before he, before you exited the house, he would throw toilet water on the floor. Oh, that's

[00:12:12] Ashley: interesting. Yeah, like, just random stuff, and like certain superstitions we had, like, Oh, you never do this on this day, or you don't do this, you know. Different stuff like that. Superstitions are, are magic. Like, I always, I would always joke with my friends, because my friends are like, wow, like, you have all these rules around stuff, and I'm like, I don't know why, but I don't do it, because I'm afraid of what's going to happen if I don't do

[00:12:34] Antonio: it, you know?

[00:12:36] It's ingrained in you, and growing up Italian, one of the Italian superstitions, we were never allowed to start something on a Tuesday or a Friday, and I still have that, you know, sort of ingrained in my head, and also dreams were very big, you know, if My grandfather would freak out if you dreamt of certain things, and, and it was this, the whole, all the symbolism was really, really just about the town where he grew up, because [00:13:00] we, if you dreamt of things like for instance, pears, if you dreamt of a pear tree or pears, it was like, oh my god, he would warn us when we went to school, he'd say, oh my god, or if he dreamt of water, that was, that, that symbolized tears, it was a very, very, sort of, it was an omen of, you know, something, so be careful, be careful, we grew up, yeah, and those things stay with you.

[00:13:19] At least they do, certainly for me. And if I start something on a Tuesday, I'm like, oh man, what am I doing now? You know, I don't know, this is gonna, you know, can I start it tomorrow instead? You know. And they stay with you. Yeah.

[00:13:33] Ashley: Exactly. Isn't it, like, so that reminds me of so, if anybody's listening to this and I'm wrong, I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure it's the law.

[00:13:41] So in Ghana, there's no fishing on Tuesday. And they're like, oh, it's because of, you know, maybe everyone needs like a day off from fishing. But like, the real reason is because like The sea god is like most active on Tuesday So they're like, oh he might get pissed off like we do too many fish too much fishing And like this is [00:14:00] a government law, but it's just like it's so everybody disagree It's like yeah, you shouldn't fish on Tuesday.

[00:14:06] So if they see someone fishing on Tuesday, everyone's like, oh shit You're about to get murdered like by the ocean

[00:14:12] Antonio: Yeah, and what's the root of that when that sort of idea? Yeah, exactly.

[00:14:18] Ashley: Yeah, it's so fun. It's so interesting And

[00:14:21] Antonio: numbers, too. Numbers, I remember, a big thing. In Italian culture, for instance, here, in India, I was, my siblings and I were born here, and growing up, it was like 13 was this bad number.

[00:14:31] I was born on the 13th, but in Italian culture, 13 is a lucky number. It's immensely, you know, lucky. 17, kind of, in most and a lot of places in Italy, not a good number. 13. It's like, Oh, wow. 13. That's great. That's a good, good, lucky number. And my mom said that she when I was born, you know, there were some, some of the nurses was like, Oh, you know, today it's the 13th or whatever.

[00:14:54] My mom, then people, you know, the Italian showed up like, Oh my God. Yay. The 13. [00:15:00] She said they were like looking at like, what? What? It's bad luck. And they were like, no, it's It's good luck. So all of these different things, yeah, and it goes back to these roots of, you know, some sort of some thought or some belief that was likely attached to, to magic or what would come of something other than, you know, just what, what's there on the normal plane, so to speak.

[00:15:23] Ashley: Yes. Yes. Yes. And I always wonder, if you go really far, like, you go like 100, 000, I don't know, I'm terrible with science, but I know, a long time ago. If you go like 50, 000 years ago, I think is when they said, people came up with language. I wonder what happened on those days, What happened on the 13th in that particular area that everyone's like this is a good thing guys

[00:15:44] Antonio: 13 Opposed to in another area where they said, oh man, let's not do this day again.

[00:15:49] It's like 13 bad. Yeah Wonder yeah,

[00:15:54] Ashley: What happened and how do they determine all this stuff? I always think cuz I feel people [00:16:00] think Back then, you know, they didn't have as many advancements as we did, but I'm like, I feel like because they didn't, they had to pay attention to like, so much more shit than we have to, like, because if your whole day and your whole life is dependent on the weather and how everybody feels that day and how everyone in the town is functioning because you can't Get your crops if the farmers and you have to pay attention to so many things that I feel that's how they figured out all these different rituals and spells because they're like, it has to be these exact conditions for us to like prosper as a neighborhood or whatever.

[00:16:37] Antonio: It's an interesting thing to think about and that that's actually one of the threads there about the evil eye when I started to really research and sort of go back it was this idea. That, people often say to me, they've, you know, people who've read the book will, I get a lot of emails, and I, I love getting emails, I thank [00:17:00] any, anybody who wants to email, you can email me right through my website and, people say that whole thing, there's a fine line between understanding it, being aware of the evil eye, but then you have to, because I say in the book, no, you have to live, you have to live your life, and, you know, you can live it, you know, the way you need to live it, but you have to just live it You know, with a sense of awareness about things.

[00:17:19] Mm hmm. And, as opposed to just, not every compliment is going to be a curse. Not every compliment is going to be, have, you know, that sort of underlying idea of, you know, the evil eye. Not every sort of but, you know, I talk about, you know, one of the ways to get the evil eye, and I'm sure we'll talk about this after, is, is, is boasting.

[00:17:36] But, not every time you, you stand up and say, Hey, guess what great thing happened to me, or to my family, or here, look at that. Not everything is going to get you. You know, the evil eye, you know, that, you know, tempting fate. So there's a, a very fine line, and I think we probably learned how to sort of, you know, straddle that line, so to speak, but back, way back when, yeah, I even remember, I mean, my grandparents were [00:18:00] much more superstitious about things and they lived in that, in that way.

[00:18:05] And it wasn't only my grandparents, it was, you know, when I was a kid, it was that sort of time, and we grew up in a neighborhood and we just knew there were certain things. If somebody, you know, dreamt of something, or, you know there were also, there were so many omens, so many things. I mean if, if a certain bird, I remember if you found like a...

[00:18:24] A dead bird, like on the, you know, they fall out of their nest, sometimes a little baby bird, oh, forget it. It's like, nobody move, nobody go anywhere, not today, not going here you know, just stop. And, and that's, those things are also rooted. And, but superstition, and it's a fascinating thing, when you look back, how many superstitions there are, and yet, the evil eye is something that has survived.

[00:18:50] Mm hmm. I mean, so much, so long, I mean, thousands of years. A lot of the other superstitions didn't, but why? You know, you look up and you get to [00:19:00] that question about why did the evil lie as a superstition, and as a belief, not only a superstition, but as a real hardcore belief that survived. And it's because it's, it's ingrained in, it's a supernatural concept, but it's really rooted in our, it's rooted in, in the human condition, something very natural, our emotions.

[00:19:18] And everybody fears you know, getting a curse on them, but even if you don't believe on it, you don't want that energy. And everybody at the same time has felt jealous. We've all felt jealousy. We've all felt envy. We've all felt Resentment. We've all felt anger. And I think we've also all been on the receiving end of those emotions.

[00:19:36] You know, you can kind of feel it when someone's angry with you or, or just jealous or envious. You can feel that. And I think when you look at certain superstitions, this is one of them in the evil eye that has survived because of that. And it continues to survive. And it continues to just be ubiquitous around the world.

[00:19:54] Because we all, you know, being envious You know, we've all experienced that. It's a [00:20:00] human, it's a human emotion. Mm

[00:20:04] Ashley: hmm. Very well said, it's true. . Okay. So, we're going to talk about our dish of the week, so every week, you guys know we talk about a dish. So today, I, oh, I literally just went on the Google machine and I was like, eagle eye food, eagle eye food. And it was like 10 foods, now this is from Times of India, so this is in India.

[00:20:25] And these are 10 foods that they listed to help you either repel or get rid of the evil eye. So, One thing that, the first thing is turmeric, and yeah, you put turmeric at the entrance of, I guess it's a home, I think? I'm not sure, but yeah, they have turmeric here, which, I feel like turmeric's good for everything.

[00:20:50] I just like it a lot. It is! Every time I get like a cold, or my fiancé gets a cold, he just dumps like... [00:21:00] Like, pots of turmeric into hot water, it makes me drink it, and it's so bad to drink it like that, but... But it works. It works! I mean, I feel better quicker, I think. I don't know. Or it's psychological, I don't know.

[00:21:11] Either way, it's fine. So, then we have salt. Salt is a very, universal thing that people use to repel, like, evil. Very much so. Yeah. I use salt all the time. I know, And a lot of like Jewish practices, they use salt too all over the world. Then also red chilies rock salt. I know people, I know chilies too, I feel like chilies are, I think it's hot things too.

[00:21:38] Like things that are hot are meant to kind of like help you cleanse, I think. I'm not sure. Everybody's a little different. Yeah. Hanging um, a lemon with some, I think these are green beans. Yeah, this is pretty cool.

[00:21:53] Antonio: Or green peppers as well. I write, I write about this in the book, actually. Okay. Mm

[00:21:56] Ashley: hmm.

[00:21:57] Yeah. Awesome. Then, neem leaves. [00:22:00] Yeah, neem, well I know neem oil for gardening is really good to get rid of pests if you don't want to use any harsh pesticides. Those apnids that grow on broccoli and stuff. I tried to grow broccoli one time. It's really hard. Yeah,

[00:22:13] Antonio: so I stopped. Especially now, there's much more of that Kai.

[00:22:16] I've read recently about those things. People I saw a video, I think it was on TikTok, and someone was cooking And she said, Oh, be careful if you make this recipe and she had broccoli and she said about that and she actually cut into it and sort of was like, Ooh, you know, she found something in there. And that's, you know, when I sort of swiped away, I didn't want to see it.

[00:22:35] I was just like, No, broccoli, I'm not seeing it. Exactly,

[00:22:40] Ashley: you'll never eat broccoli again. I know. Then we got, uh, mustard seeds. Talk about mustard seeds. Then we have lemon. And then we have a classic, classic garlic for good for everything. Everything. And you can probably, cause it's such a strong smell [00:23:00] too.

[00:23:00] It's just, whatever's evil is like, oh no, not garlic.

[00:23:03] Antonio: I can't do it. Remember back, what, those movies when I was a kid. The, the vampire movies always had the garlic. Someone either hung garlic or wore that. The garlic on your neck to repel the vampire. Yeah, but it is true, garlic too, especially Italian culture.

[00:23:16] It's a, you know to, in some parts of Italy, to repel the evil eye or the malocchio, you would be given literally like a piece of garlic to swallow. You just, like a pill.

[00:23:28] Ashley: Oh gosh, that's rough. Mm hmm. Like, I mean, it probably works, but like, ugh. Chili peppers.

[00:23:33] Antonio: Yeah, I mean, and the peppers were always a big thing.

[00:23:37] A bunch of red, you know, the peppers were often hung. They still are in the kitchen. And that's meant also to repel the evil eye. Oh. Oh, wow. And in the book I mentioned, someone gave me a custom that she had done, and it was taking rice And it was wrapped in a, a bag and, and you sort of bat it against your neck if [00:24:00] you think someone was doing the evil eye.

[00:24:01] You can, it was un, I believe it was the uncooked rye, and it, and it was with, maybe it was turmeric. I'm not sure what the spice was, but, yeah, lots of foods have been used. And still are. Still are. And also like eggplant, phallic shaped objects. Those are all, always used to repel the evil eye. So, people will hang, you know, the eggplant in a certain part of, on the table.

[00:24:26] Yeah, there's a whole big thing about food from different cultures that have the power to repel the evil eye. So,

[00:24:34] Ashley: it's a fascinating topic. It really is. And the last one is that, burning coconut and then rotating it around the head of a domestic animal can prevent the animal From the effects of the evil eye, which I thought that was so interesting.

[00:24:52] I was like,

[00:24:53] Antonio: oh. That is very fascinating. That I did not know. Although the coconut, I do believe I wrote about It was taking a [00:25:00] coconut and turning it either a certain direction and then smashing it. And that was also something that obliterated the evil eye.

[00:25:09] Ashley: Wow. So many things. Oh my gosh. Oh, I love it.

[00:25:13] So we're gonna, yeah, we're gonna continue this. So, but first, of course, I have to do my plug. So, so if everybody, if you like this show, keep listening to it. This is Dine with the Divine. We're Dine with the Divine. We're on TikTok. We're on all these social websites. TikTok, threads, Instagram. Yeah, I think that's a Facebook.

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[00:25:54] com. Okay, let's go. So now we're going to talk about the evil eye. That's our tea time. If you guys haven't figured it out. [00:26:00] Antonio wrote a whole book about it, so I was like, obviously his book is extensive and goes way more into it. We're going to give you an overview because I just want everybody to see how universal of a topic this really is.

[00:26:14] Like it's, it's everywhere. So Of course, we went to our favorite girl Wikipedia. And I was like, Wikipedia, what do you guys have to say about this? So this is what Wikipedia says when you type in the evil eye. So the evil eye is a supernatural belief in a curse brought by a malevolent glare, usually given to a person when one is unaware.

[00:26:35] The evil eye dates back 5, 000 years. In the 6th century BC, it appeared in Chalchandin drinking vessels, you know, I'm terrible at pronunciations. I apologize everyone. Known as eye cups as a type of protective magic. It is found in many cultures in the Mediterranean region as well as Western Asia and Central Asia.

[00:26:56] And such cultures also believing that receiving [00:27:00] the evil eye will cause misfortune or injury. While others believe it is a type of supernatural force that casts or reflects a malevolent gaze. back upon those who wish harm upon others, especially, like, innocent, like, you know, babies and stuff like that.

[00:27:15] Other iterations of this symbol were often made of clay or ceramic. However, following the production of glass beads in the Mediterranean region in approximately 1500 B. C., B. C. E., evil eye beads were popularized with the Phoenicians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, and the Ottomans. So, like I said before, This is literally, like, the, to me, and obviously this is not a fact, this is just me saying it, I think this might be one of the biggest international spiritual concepts.

[00:27:49] I can't think of something that in basically almost everywhere around the world, not everywhere, obviously, but almost everywhere around the world, [00:28:00] has some type of, either they believe in the evil eye, in whatever, however they believe in it, or they have some type of version of it. On Wikipedia, I'm didn't, yeah, I didn't count, but there's like at least 30 or 40 languages that have their own, what they call the evil eye, which is pretty.

[00:28:16] Interesting. Yeah. So, a little bit of more background. So, the belief in the evil eye, like I said, dates back to at least ancient Urgarit, as it attests to texts from this city. So, this is in modern day Syria, and this is, this city was destroyed in about 1180 BCE, which was during the late Bronze Age. It was never rebuilt, and people lost a lot of documents, but they think it It goes back even earlier than that, for sure.

[00:28:45] onE thing I thought was so interesting, Oh, go

[00:28:47] Antonio: ahead, go ahead. I was going to say, it certainly It certainly goes back at least 5, 000 years. People, historians don't always agree about it, but some say it's the ancient Egypt, [00:29:00] some say it goes back to Mesopotamia. But definitely, yeah, very far back, and there are, even the, there were excavations, I think, in 1938 at Talbrok, and they unearthed it's now, the building, I think it's called the Eye Temple, but they unearthed all these figurines with incised eyes on them, and, and again, historians are, some say, yes, it has to do with the evil eye, or some say it has to do with deities, but the concept certainly goes back.

[00:29:25] We know the ancient Egyptians painted symbol, you know, the eye symbol On coffins and on buildings and, and boats. And also, you know, on, on the coffins for pass, safe passage into, you know, the afterlife. And you know, everyone I think has seen the Eye of Horus. These are all, that's still today a symbol that's used to, you know, ward away negativity in the evil eye.

[00:29:47] But also to bring about... Health and prosperity. So it's both an talisman when you, when you wear the the Eye of Horus. But the history goes back tremendously far. I mean, it's, [00:30:00] it's, some will tell you it stops at each age. Some will say, as I said before, it's mesopotamia. But it has survived. Throughout thousands of years.

[00:30:09] It literally, literally has. And, today, that's what's so fascinating about it. Explosion of sort of the evil eye jewelry. Yeah. It's just, you know, everywhere. And I interviewed someone who told me that he, I believe he was Greek, and he said when he was in another part of the world he didn't speak a particular language where he was.

[00:30:30] And he said what they understood, though, were the symbols, the evil eye. Mm hmm. You know, what they call Mati or the Nazar. They absolutely, he said this was something that Totally different cultures, but they each knew what they were talking about. They didn't know how to say it, but they were like, Oh, got it, got it, I understand what you're saying.

[00:30:47] And they brought him an amulet, sort of, he was in a marketplace. Oh, neat. And they were like, this is an amulet as well, for that. It's like, this is what it is. And he said he was amazed, because no language, but they understood exactly what they were, the [00:31:00] concept, and what it was.

[00:31:02] Ashley: It's really, really fascinating.

[00:31:04] So. Just like, well, so I think it's so interesting, like you said, it could have been Mesopotamia, it could have been Egypt, but remember like that area of the world people were trading, you know, and then we got the Phoenicians who were like a seafaring people. So people were trading stuff and they were trading ideas and people go different places.

[00:31:23] So I'm sure it kind of circulated around the area. So everybody kind of was like, Oh yeah, this is this concept that we all agree. It's probably a thing that's happening.

[00:31:33] Antonio: And way back when, I mean, there were, there was a period, I, I also mention this in the book, there's a period where sight is accomplished, you know, extramission versus intramission, and it was a period, a time when it was believed that rays, you know, like, and energy, actually, they were emitted by the eyes.

[00:31:51] And sort of like, like these tendrils kind of thing, and that, that's how sight was accomplished. Now, of course, you know, there's the idea of intrami not the idea, the idea, we know sight [00:32:00] is accomplished through intramission, but people still believe some people still believe that the energy can be emitted through the eyes.

[00:32:07] And that was an old belief, and people really thought, of course, can you imagine if you believed that someone could stare at you, and emit this energy, because that's how sight was accomplished, it, in that and that idea, can you imagine not being petrified by, oh, if they looked at me too much, these eyes, this energy was going to get me.

[00:32:25] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so, the eyes in general the symbology, it's, it's huge. And it, it is multi faceted, it's multi layered. And it goes, again, through many, many cultures and many periods of history.

[00:32:40] Ashley: Yes, yes, it's so, it's so cool. So, a couple of different places it was mentioned it was a bunch of Greek philosophers and historians, Hesiod, Plato Plutarch, Piloney the Elder, all of them had mentioned it in [00:33:00] different different books that they wrote, in different anthologies and things like that they, Piloney the Elder, I think he's the person, We have an episode about Saturnalia, which is a holiday, a Roman holiday, and he really hated Saturnalia.

[00:33:14] And I just, that's what I think of now every time I see him, is how he built a soundproof room so everyone would leave him alone. Because he didn't, because he didn't, he said everyone was being too loud during the holiday, and he didn't want to talk to anyone. Anyway, so

[00:33:27] Antonio: that's building the elevator.

[00:33:27] If you can hear, I'm sure you can hear, I know that feeling because I'm in the middle of Manhattan doing this, you can probably hear the traffic outside my window. So, yeah.

[00:33:35] Ashley: He was so tired. He's like, I'm trying to write and everyone's just having fun and they won't shut up. So so we'll go we'll just talk about it real quick.

[00:33:45] We'll talk about it a little bit in religion Then we'll talk about it in like geographical area. So in different religions we have The evil eye mentioned a whole bunch of times. So in Judaism, it's a big concept A lot of the time, you'll see it with the evil eye with a [00:34:00] Hamza, and a Hamza is that hand that, like, it's usually really pretty and decorative.

[00:34:05] Sometimes it's plain, but it's usually very beautiful. It's mentioned a whole bunch of times in a book called Per Ki Avot, which is The Ethics of Our Fathers. And there's a rabbi, famous rabbi, named Rabbi El Eisner. Who said the evil eye was worse than having a bad friend, a bad neighbor, or having an evil heart.

[00:34:25] Which is pretty bad. So, they also said that... So a lot of Jewish people also believe in a good eye, which designates an attitude of goodwill and kindness towards others. Someone who has this attitude in life will rejoice when their, their neighbor, whoever is doing well, and that's like the good eye.

[00:34:44] So I think it's kind of cool that you can have an evil eye or you can have a good eye. You'd be nice. Yes.

[00:34:50] Antonio: Mentioned. Yes. It's mentioned.

[00:34:53] Ashley: Yeah, I don't like good. Yeah. Be nice. So also a person who has like the evil eye is [00:35:00] somebody who, according to Judaism, somebody who's not really very happy, somebody who is not happy when other people are doing well, and this person is a great danger to moral purity.

[00:35:13] Antonio: Well, that concept of somebody who's it's, it certainly goes far beyond religion, certainly far beyond Judaism, it, that, that, the idea that somebody who doesn't, who's just upset by somebody else's success, or that's, that goes back to, in my belief, the human condition, it's the, Yeah. Transcends religion or anything like that.

[00:35:35] Mm hmm. And I've often said, people have asked me to describe, and they say, well, you know, I always say that the book is a friendly reminder about an unfriendly topic. Because nobody really wants to talk about, talking about jealousy or envy, it's uncomfortable, you know? Mm hmm. But the truth of the matter, and it's a bitter pill to swallow, it's hard to, to come to terms with this fact, which I'm going to say that, but not everybody in your [00:36:00] life Mm hmm.

[00:36:00] wants you to succeed. Not everybody wants to see you living your best life. Not everybody's happy that you're getting the good job, that you're in the good relationship, that you're, you know, getting married, that you're getting the house. That's, it's, and it's not always people, it's not always these enemies, you know, my ex friend, my ex boss, my ex this, my you know, who I don't speak to anymore.

[00:36:20] It's not only those people. It's people who are quite close to you sometimes. You know, the friend who you don't suspect, it could be the family member, and again, it goes back to this idea of it just being part of being human because we experience these emotions. Yeah. And that's ultimately when you get into the, you know, these, the definitions of the evil eye it goes beyond it goes beyond religion, certainly, and, and it brings us all back to that one thing where.

[00:36:51] As I said, everybody's human. You know, you're human. Everybody has had these emotions. And that's, that's the crux of it. You're not always gonna be [00:37:00] met with someone or, you know, who just, who just wants you to be happy. And that's, that's tough. When you really sit down and think about it, you can think, you know, well, what do you mean?

[00:37:08] You know, I have a nice group of friends, but, or a nice group of co workers, or whatever it is. Then not everyone wants you to succeed and be happy and it's unfortunate, but it is real and that's we're coming becoming aware of the evil eye That's why it's so important to be aware of it.

[00:37:25] Ashley: Oh, yeah so even you saying that I have this that has happened to me in my life I had a friend who I didn't realize really didn't want good things for me I think about the evil eye in a, in a, in a way that also, I think an evil eye is a way to conceptualize the fact that sometimes people can just think bad things for you also.

[00:37:50] And I think that can materialize too. Just like, you know, people love to talk about manifesting and you can also manifest shitty things. Like for, you know, and if the [00:38:00] other person is kind of aware or realizes it. But I know I had a situation where I knew somebody who I was working with and they, we were very, very close.

[00:38:09] Meanwhile, they couldn't stand me and I didn't realize. And then. When I tried to like, confront this person and, you know, try to talk them out, it didn't work. But, like, all these shitty things started happening to me at work. It was wild, you know? Like, I was just like, all these bad things started happening to me.

[00:38:28] And until I was able to kind of like, since I'm kind of a magical person myself figure that shit out. Then it like, got better, but ... It was like a serious issue, like, I really could have gotten in a lot of trouble. Yeah but yeah. Energy is real.

[00:38:42] Antonio: Energy, everything is energy. And we know that energy never dies or disappears, it just changes form.

[00:38:49] Yes. But, you know, energy, we are energy. And so, when you link it to this idea of, and look, emotions are powerful. You know, even when you talk about people wanting to [00:39:00] manifest, what is a, you know, lot of the instructions about things come about with getting yourself in that emotional state of having received something, feeling happy, getting on that, matching the vibration of something.

[00:39:11] That's your energy. And just as you can bring yourself into a state. You know, of, of, of feeling happy emotions, and feeling gratitude, and, and feeling, you know, bliss, and ecstasy, and all these wonderful things. So, too, can you have the energy of, you know, that energy which is envy, which is, you know, lack.

[00:39:32] What, what do I lack but someone else has, you know? That brings you into, right, right there, brings you into jealousy. You know, why does that person have what, have that I should have it? You know, I work, I work just as hard. Why did, why did he get it and not me? Why, you know, and this is sort of a tennis game that goes back and forth kind of thing.

[00:39:49] And that's where the energy comes from. And when that energy starts to manifest in your life, you do recognize that, that negative things start [00:40:00] happening. And, which brings you into the idea of how do you stop that. A lot of people think and look, the bottom line too is, yeah, you know, we, We can't control, you know, most of the circumstances of life and things like that.

[00:40:15] Stuff happens, you know. And some of it's, you know, scary and bad and why did that happen? A lot of it is very good. But you can control how you protect yourself. You can control how you protect your home, your livelihood. You can control how you want to protect your Lives of your loved ones, your bank account, and your objects, your new car, your old car.

[00:40:42] You know, anything like that, your, your jewelry, your book, you know, anything you want from me, of course, you know, I'm obsessed with books. I just, you know, so for me, you know, I want to have everywhere. But, you know, that's what you can take an active [00:41:00] role. In doing, you can say, you know what, I'm becoming aware of what the evil eye is.

[00:41:05] I'm becoming aware of the fact that, you know, it's okay to recognize that sometimes this person's energy or this person in general just might not wish me well. And I don't want that energy to sort of spill into my life, so I'm going to take the steps to deflect it. I'm going to, and, and, you know, you wear amulets, there are rituals, there are different prayers, there are many things you can do.

[00:41:27] There are herbs that have... You know, no prayers, you know, if you don't want to pray or do anything in that, in, in sort of that realm. It's very, very possible and real to sit there and to look and to do a ritual, a simple ritual, or a more in depth ritual, a more elaborate ritual. It's, it's what you choose, but you can be in control of your Protection, and how you're creating, you know, the protection magic in your life.

[00:41:57] And that's so much of what the book is [00:42:00] about and gets into, because once you're aware of it, you start to see things, and you start to recognize things. And once you recognize it, you've turned your life into a whole different direction, because you can look up and say, oh, wow, you know? Look at all these bad things that happened.

[00:42:16] That's not normal, you know. I mean, look, everybody experiences bad luck. We all have that idea of bad luck. Oh, you know, the tire blew out. You know I tripped going down the stairs. This happened. But, you know, When you have 10 things happening in the span of two weeks, you know, and you got to look up and say, wow, this is a little bit more than just random bad luck, you know, it's got to have a source somewhere.

[00:42:39] That's where you get into this, get into the evil eye. And that's where someone who becomes knowledgeable about it and knowledgeable about energy and then knowing how to recognize it, how to diagnose it, and then how to, You know, repel it, how to cure the condition, or how to deflect the condition. Once you become aware of that, you do look at life differently.

[00:42:59] Because [00:43:00] you become empowered in a different way. Yes. And you just start to say, you know what, I felt something tonight. This person I just met, whether it's the new co worker, the friend, maybe someone I saw 10 years ago, I saw them now, family member, whatever it is. I felt something strange. I didn't like that comment.

[00:43:15] Yeah. There was something, you know, it was a sugar coated comment. There was a little, a little dagger in there that I recognized. So now I'm gonna, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna light my candle, I'm gonna say my prayer, I'm gonna put salt here, I'm gonna do this ritual. And that takes your life and your energy into a different direction.

[00:43:33] And it, and also, it shields you from that person the next time you see them, you know? It shields you from other energy out there. So that's why it's so important, it's so important to be aware of it.

[00:43:45] Ashley: It really is. Oh, I love that. Oh, so many good things.

[00:43:48] In Antonio's book, he has way more details, so please read it because what I'm giving you is just like the quick and dirty notes about the evil eye. So so also in Judaism, there's a lot [00:44:00] of different rituals centered around protection of the evil eye for children and babies. So, especially in parts of Europe, like Alsace, southern Germany, Switzerland there's special kinds of neckbands that are worn by babies to protect them and boys to protect them during their bris, which is the ritual circumcision.

[00:44:22] So that's Judaism. So then in Christianity, there's a bunch of different parts in, in the Bible where they talk about the evil eye. In Luke 1134, I didn't read it, but that's what it says here Jesus references the evil eye as the lamp of the, sorry, not the evil eye, he references the eye as the lamp of the body, and if a person's eye is generous, then their whole body will be full of light, and if the eye is evil, then their whole body will be full of darkness.

[00:44:48] So there's a couple other books in the Bible where they talk about the evil eye. Yeah. Well,

[00:44:52] Antonio: they, if I can, they ref, you know, it's alluded to even in the parable of the workers in the vineyard, which I think is Matthew 20[00:45:00] and 1 through 16, I think. And you have this great, the group of workers are kind of angered, they're dismayed because they get paid the same amount as these workers who did far less or worked far less.

[00:45:14] And, you know, that's the, why should someone who works less get paid the same amount as somebody who works more? It's kind of this universal question, but the landowner in the parable basically responds I think it, you know, is it not lawful for me to do what I will, sort of, you know, with my own money?

[00:45:31] Do you, is my, do you think my eye is evil, because I am good, because I'm just, I want everyone to sort of do this fairly. That's referring to Envy. They're envious. These other people have to, you can hear my cat in the background. Can you not hear my cat in the background? Really? Okay. I know, you're, listen, so it's a witchy apartment.

[00:45:48] I know. But you can see it also, it's a, it's a reference to Envy. And in so many other, there's a wonderful, series of books, it's called Beware the Evil Eye, [00:46:00] and the scholar John Eliot actually theorizes that in the original, the scripture, in, in original language, the original language held, I, I think it's as many as, I think he said as many as 23 or 24 references to the evil eye that basically were kind of Overtime obscured in the translations.

[00:46:24] So you could, it's very much alluded to in, and even, you know, look at the 10th commandment. Mm hmm. Thou shall not covet. Yeah. In the 10th commandment. You know, what does that refer to? You shall not covet. That's jealousy. That's envy. You're not coveting something. You're envious of it. And that's a big sort of question.

[00:46:45] Does that refer to the evil eye? I mean, doesn't it? If you think about it, when you're covering something, you're talking about envy. So, yeah, it's it's very much, and you can see it in different parts of the Bible. It's also What was [00:47:00] the, you talked about the lamp of the body, I'm going through, and we talked about the land owners.

[00:47:07] I mean, the one about the, where The sermon on the mount with the eyes, the lamp of the body. It's, you know, the darkness I, I believe is a reference to greed and Ill will. Yeah. You know, if you have that Mm-Hmm. , you know, then your, your eye is dark and what you're looking at. Yeah. The way you look at things is going to be envious.

[00:47:27] 'cause you're gonna see the lack. Of things. Yeah. With that sort of darkness that, that is mentioned there. You're looking at the lack. You're not seeing the bounty. You're not seeing all of the, the good things in your life, you're, you're seeing what's not there. And when you see what's not there, you see who has what you don't have and what you want.

[00:47:44] And so there you start the envy all over again. Mm hmm. Yeah. It's, it's. Okay. Live and well in the, in the, in the ancient texts. Yeah.

[00:47:53] Ashley: Yes. It's everywhere. And. Last but not least, for the religious part, we got [00:48:00] in Islam, now, the first thing I thought about when I saw this was well here it says, in Islam, the evil eye is a common belief, just like Antonia had said before, about individuals having, wanting to cause harm to people, and looking at them because, and it, being caused by jealousy or envy.

[00:48:17] And it made me think of, And again, I know this is religious versus cultural, but I know in, in, in a lot of Arab countries, if somebody compliments you like, oh, I like your earrings, then like, you take off your earrings and give it to them. It's like a very common thing. I know. Mm-Hmm. In a lot of Arab countries, I don't know if that has anything to do with like evil.

[00:48:40] I, I'm interested to know. If anybody knows, please let me know.

[00:48:44] Antonio: You know, the, according to Hadith, you know, the, the collected, the traditions of, of the Prophet Muhammad, it said that, the Prophet said, the evil eye is, and I'm slightly paraphrasing it, but I have, I do include this in, in the book, [00:49:00] and he says the, the evil eye is real, if anything were to overtake the divine decree, it would be the evil eye.

[00:49:06] And I know that scholars reference this, versus. I believe 51 and 52 um, of Al Kalam as being like sort of the links to the evil eye. Those are sort of like the evil eye verses. I know when I was researching that the Encyclopedia of Islam, it's believed that the evil eye may have fatal consequences specified, it, one of them says it even specifies it as the cause of half of all deaths.

[00:49:35] A Moroccan proverb, I think, puts it at two thirds. But you can see it very much there. Many Muslims I interviewed said that taking a bath will cure the evil eye. When you get, when you receive a compliment, saying, you know, the phrase mashallah, which means getting a compliment. So you certainly see it throughout the, you know, referenced, or at least [00:50:00] alluded to in the Quran.

[00:50:03] Ashley: Yeah. Yeah, that was my thing, and mashallah is something that, you know, you hear all the time, you know, when you're

[00:50:09] Antonio: around yourself. And about Judaism, it's fascinating, you know, you spoke about Judaism earlier, and you could see it a lot alluded to in, like, you know, the morning prayers in the lives implied.

[00:50:20] It's not explicitly mentioned in, in the Torah but very deeply implied in certain places you have in Genesis. You know, Jacob blesses his son Joseph, and is saying that he will be, you know, a fruitful vine by a fountain hanging over a wall. And the reading that the rabbis of the Talmud, the reading of a Hebrew word from the passage to reinterpret the blessing to mean that Joseph's descendants will, um, never be susceptible to the evil eye.

[00:50:53] That blessing, it's reduced over time, and the phrase, to the phrase Ben Porat Yosef, which translated means the fruitful son. [00:51:00] So and it's played into the story of Hagar and Sarah the miscarriage. I mean, it's certainly there, when you look at it the Rosh Hashanah ritual of Tashlit, when, you know, when Jewish people cast pieces of bread, you know, into the water.

[00:51:17] Symbolizes the casting off of sins, and it's, it's done by a body of water because it's, some scholars will tell you because fish cannot be harmed by the evil eye. Hmm. Yeah. Interesting. So it's, it's very, very, yeah, very fascinating. That's so interesting. And I forget which other I think it's the, I forgot if it's the, the Baba Matsya, I forgot what it was called, but he, the saying is that in a graveyard, And 99 of the 100 deaths are a result of the evil eye.

[00:51:48] Wow. Yeah, yeah. I do reference, I, I reference it in, in the book. Hmm. So you can see it, again, just about everywhere in, in many of our world religions. [00:52:00] Yes. Certainly as well in Hinduism, Zoroastrianism. So it's not only, you know, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. You can see it throughout many of the world religions.

[00:52:09] Yes.

[00:52:10] Ashley: Yes. Absolutely. So this is a big belief in the Caribbean and the West Indies. And a lot of people believe that especially in Trinidad and Tobago, , there was a large population of people who immigrated there from India to work in, like, the late 1800s.

[00:52:26] So they believe that a lot of it comes from the Indian subcontinent and Hinduism. So there's a lot of belief there in the evil eye. Also from the French, and we'll get into that. So there's a lot of rural legends. There's a lot of different things people associated with the color blue.

[00:52:42] So sometimes they'll use they'll wear different blue things or have blue bottles or hang blue bottles from trees to help get rid of the blue evil eye. There's different kinds of beads that they make jewelry out of and they wear and sometimes bathing in [00:53:00] the sea. Just kind of like you just mentioned, maybe it has something to do with the fish.

[00:53:03] But maybe, and then you talked about the water, yeah, that you just talked about with Judaism, too. Yes getting rid of the evil eye that way. Someone who's born with a blight in the eye when such a person is... Admired as a child so that means that that baby has like maybe have the evil eye on it and sometimes it's seen that a Doctor won't be able to fix it So it's like if somebody's having all these problems or even health problems and a doctor can't fix it they may go to somebody who tries to get rid of the evil eye and some of it comes from Hinduism, especially in different islands where there's a large population that of people who came from India but also in some Afro Caribbean traditions such as spiritual Baptist and Orisha traditions, they have special pieces of jewelry like talismans that can be worn to also ward off the evil eye or even just using a big safety pin for babies.

[00:53:56] anD we talked about... Babies, yeah. Yeah, babies.

[00:53:58] Antonio: Hugely susceptible to the evil [00:54:00] eye. I want to just, for anyone who's listening, I want to just clarify for, for people who might be wondering, when the evil eye, we talked about it being a negative force that's cast through a look, and that look is born from envy, but I want people to understand that when I...

[00:54:18] There are basically three ways. The first is literally someone is envious of you and they let you know it. They give you a nasty look or they give you, you know, the not so nice compliment, or they just let you know it. It's very, sort of overt. It's out there. They don't like you, they're jealous of you, they, and you know it.

[00:54:39] That's, that's one way. is and this, this is when it's an, sort of an unconscious casting of the evil eye, which someone gives you a compliment, and yet they don't know that they might have some underlying feelings of envy, or jealousy that they're not even in touch with, kind of know, but really not really.

[00:54:57] They don't want anything bad to happen to you, but [00:55:00] they, they're a little envious of that new house that you got and they're there. But this is the practice of saying, if you've ever seen someone say, Oh, I'm beautiful baby or beautiful house. God bless you. God bless this house. God bless. Knocking on wood in parts of Italy was where when you got a compliment.

[00:55:15] When I was a kid, we spent a lot of summers in Italy. And when you got a compliment, you'd have to spit in certain parts where you were taught. So these rituals, knocking on wood in parts of Italy, it's talk of a touch iron, but the iron All of these things are done when you give a compliment or even when you receive it.

[00:55:35] It's to ward away the evil eye, just in case it's something that's sort of unconscious. So that's the second way that happens. The third way is that you can bring about the evil eye through boasting. You can do it, you can bring it upon yourself. You go out there and you constantly talk about everything that's, you know, all of your awesome plans.

[00:55:53] You know, this, I got the raise I got a, you know, the new house, I got the new partner, I got the new [00:56:00] car, and everything's going so great. You know. That's the way, you know, you're tempting fate, you're tempting the eye, because you're talking too much about that. So, there's a fine line between sort of boasting and celebrating success.

[00:56:11] You want to celebrate your successes, you want to celebrate your family's successes, that's natural. Of course. But, how many pictures do you need to post about that on Instagram? How much is, you know, do you need to sort of go out there on social media and broadcast these things? That's where the fine line comes into about boasting.

[00:56:26] So, those are the basic three ways. That you can, the evil eye can be cast, or that you can bring it upon yourself. And I make, I want people to, I always try to make people understand that. Because they do have questions and say, well, you know, what do you mean? Did someone give it to me? Did they mean to?

[00:56:42] Did they not mean to? They might not mean to, but it happens anyway, because they might have some. That's why it's important to know sometimes, to say, if you're giving a compliment, Listen, I grew up with this stuff, so when I give a compliment, I'm, if I, See a kid and, oh my God, baby's beautiful. God bless you.

[00:56:58] That's, comes out of my [00:57:00] mouth all the time because it's what was ingrained in me, but I believe that as well. I just want to give the blessing so the evil eye is, you know, averted. Yeah. Those are the ways that are very important. I didn't mean to interrupt you like that. I just, No, I'm glad you did. I know some people always ask me and say, well, can you clarify?

[00:57:16] And I, and I think it's, I want people to understand those ways. Yeah.

[00:57:21] Ashley: Oh, glad you did. So also in modern Greece,

[00:57:25] so there were some certain prayers and certain things you can say to figure out if someone has the evil eye. So there is different versions of the prayer depending where you live, but one of the common ones is, Holy Virgin Our Lady, if so and so, the person's name, is suffering from the evil eye, release him or her a bit.

[00:57:43] So this is, this is repeated three times. No, evil is repeated three times. I have here according to the custom, then if the person, the victim of evil eye and the healer, the person saying the prayer, if they both start yawning a lot, then The evil eye is there and we [00:58:00] gotta get rid of it. So then the healer then performs the sign of the cross three times and emits spitting like sounds in the air three times.

[00:58:07] There's a couple other different tests. And you can look at them. I'm gonna post them up. But, so that's in Greece. So then we also have the Assyrians. So this is like Syria and some of the surrounding areas. They have a ruby eye pendant, which is one of the things that wards off the evil eye for them.

[00:58:24] This is a belief that was strong with the Assyrians, and they also used a blue and turquoise bead with two, seven, or nine small holes resembling eyes around the necklace, and it's often worn and said to be a protective like talisman. So, then we go to Turkey. So then we, you talked about Nazars before Antonio.

[00:58:46] So a Nazar is a handmade glass featuring a concentric.

[00:58:52] Antonio: Gosh, I can't talk today. It can also be, and that's what people, it's the blue circle, the blue, the blue, the white, and then there's the black dot. So a lot of [00:59:00] people call this, I'm gonna put, I'm gonna put on my evil eye. That's sort of what people say, but in fact, you're, you're putting on what's called the Nazar.

[00:59:07] Yes. And that's what the, that's what the symbol that people see. The very, very common one with the blue. Mm-Hmm. that, yeah. That's anr. People will say, I'm putting on my evil eye, but you're, you're actually putting on Anza. You don't wanna put on an evil eye . Yeah. Yeah. That,

[00:59:19] Ashley: but if you haven't gotten that yet, it's bad

[00:59:21] Antonio: People do say it and it's, you know, people say, putting fact. Yes. It, it, it, it is called a nazar. Yeah.

[00:59:28] Ashley: It's very cool. I have one too. Yeah. So these are popular in. Okay, let me run through this. Turkey, I know, Turkey, Romania, Albania, Northern Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine Egypt, Armenia, Iran, India, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Iraq, and Azerbaijan.

[00:59:52] And these are, it's hung everywhere. You, everybody, you guys know what it looks like. It's hung everywhere. People have clothing, necklaces, bracelets

[00:59:58] Antonio: Back splashes, there are carpets, there [01:00:00] are area rugs, there are, yeah, everything that have the nazar or the hamsa. All of, yeah, the symbols are just everywhere.

[01:00:09] Everywhere.

[01:00:10] Ashley: So, then we also have it in Ethiopia, and we have it a belief of this in Senegal. And again, I'm just going to tell you the country so we can get to our story, because I really love our story today. We have it in India, and that's kind of where our story is going to pop off, so we'll get to that.

[01:00:29] In Pakistan. And then we have in, in, in Italy, a lot of different just like Antonia has been talking about. There's a lot of stuff going on in Italy with the evil eye. This is like a very, like a lot happening. I think you, you probably could have just written your book just about Italy

[01:00:52] Antonio: and the evil eye. yeah. It's serious. Like,

[01:00:56] Ashley: it's serious. I mean, all these places, it's pretty

[01:00:59] Antonio: serious. [01:01:00] Well, yeah. I mean, even just everywhere that I've written about, you can see it. It's, it's, like you said, it's serious. It's just about everywhere. I mean, there's no place that really sort of takes it as in terms of places that I've written about in the, in the book that just sort of, you know, Nah, nah, nah, it's not even serious.

[01:01:17] It's very, very serious. No. Rituals Like I said, to, to ward it, to diagnose it, it goes, it's very, very in depth.

[01:01:25] Ashley: Yes, it really is. Serious business. Yeah, you even have it in, not like you even have it, there's nothing wrong with Malta. It's just a random place, I was like, Malta? I was like, okay.

[01:01:35] Antonio: Very big in Malta, yes.

[01:01:37] Ashley: Yes, Malta is one of those places, everybody, this is your fun fact of the day. It's like, very easy to get Maltese citizenship, apparently. So all these people doing illegal activities will just go and make like that they live in Malta for a year, like get a Maltese address, and then you can get citizenship, and then they do all their illegal activities away from their country.

[01:01:58] I've never heard that. [01:02:00] Yeah, I was watching an episode of 60 Minutes, and they were like, The world was like, Malta, can you guys calm down? Because like, all these people are doing illegal stuff. Then you have it all over Latin America. You have it in Brazil. Which is brought, it was mostly brought over by the Portuguese.

[01:02:17] And again Spain, you have it again. Spain brought, brought it over to all of Latin America and then most of the time, and now it's, and it talks about, obviously in the United States because of all the different immigrants from all the different places who brought it here. So this is, that's a little overview of where you can find the evil eye basically everywhere.

[01:02:37] Okay. So today's story, I read this story and I was like, I kind of liked it. I thought it was an interesting story. So this story comes to us from the, like, Bengal region of India. So this is in eastern India and Bangladesh, that kind of area. So this story is called The Evil Eye of Sani. And I had never heard this story, but [01:03:00] I really liked it.

[01:03:00] Okay. So. Up in the heavens lived Sani, who is the god of bad luck, and Lakshmi, who is the goddess of good luck. So a lot of us have seen Lakshmi, she's this beautiful woman, and usually has like pink roses and stuff, like she's really pretty. So Lakshmi, Lakshmi, it's Lakshmi, Lakshmi is the goddess of good luck.

[01:03:22] And Sani and Lakshmi got in a fight because they were like, who's more powerful, is it me or you? So they stopped talking. And then up there, they were like, we need to start figuring out how to settle this argument. So they both decided they were gonna pick a human who was really smart and, like, a good person.

[01:03:43] So they found this one guy, and his name is Sirbatsa. So, Sirbatsa was super wise, and he was kind, and he was just all around, like, a good dude. So, one day, Sirbatsa found out that... Sani and [01:04:00] Lakshmi were coming down to see him, and of course, if two gods are coming to your house, you get a little nervous, because you're like, what's going on?

[01:04:07] You're like, like, so, he got a little nervous, and then he found out what the problem was gonna be, that they wanted him to settle this argument. So he's like, oh shit. He's like, if I pick Lakshmi, then Sani, the god of bad luck, is gonna curse me. But if I pick Sani and say he's more powerful, Then Lakshmi is never going to give me any good luck.

[01:04:30] So I'm kind of like damned if I do and damned if I don't. So he's like, okay, this is what I'm going to do. I'm not going to talk. I'm just going to let my, like, my feelings, like, I'm not going to tell them how I feel. I'm just going to, like, kind of make it known, and you'll see how. So he was like, he got two stools made.

[01:04:50] One stool was gold and one stool was silver. And he put them on either side of him. So when he, when Lakshmi and Sani came to the [01:05:00] house he told Lakshmi to sit on the gold stool, and he told Sani to sit on the silver stool. Now, obviously, we all know that gold is worth more than silver. So, Sonny did too, and Sonny was pissed.

[01:05:13] And he was like, So, this is what you're gonna do right now? You're gonna insult me? You think that Lakshmi is more important than me? And he's like, I am putting my evil eye on you, and you are now cursed for three years. So, I don't know why he picked three years, but he did. So he said, You're cursed for three years, and, bye, I'm leaving.

[01:05:33] So he left, right? Now Lakshmi looks over because Sir Batsa is like, Oh shit, like what am I gonna do? And Lakshmi's like, don't worry, I'm gonna take care of you, nothing bad's gonna happen to you. Well at least nothing bad that I can't handle. And he's like, okay fine. So now Sir Batsa is still nervous though, because apparently he's gonna have three years of bad luck.

[01:05:53] So he goes and calls his wife, and his wife is a real one. Her name is Chintamani. He's like, [01:06:00] Chintamani, listen. I have to leave the house for three years and she's like, pardon? What? I can't stay with you because the god saw me, put his evil eye on me, a bunch of bad shit's about to happen to me, I don't want anything bad to happen to you, I love you, blah, blah, blah.

[01:06:15] And Chintamani's like, babe, where you go, I go. That's how this is gonna work. I'm your wife, we are together, I'm a ride or die kind of chick. And he's like, okay, please don't say that, you have to stay. So they get into a little bit of an argument. But he realized that Chintamani is not that kind of partner.

[01:06:34] She's not gonna bow out when it gets tough. She's gonna stay. Sherbatsa is

[01:06:41] like, okay, fine. He's like, this is what we got to do. We got to leave. I think we got to leave the house for like three years and we need to just like wander. So they do. So, the Surbatsa tells Chintamani, go get the mattress, cut a hole in the middle, and put all of our jewels and stuff in there. So she's like, no [01:07:00] problem.

[01:07:00] So she goes and does it. They wrap up the mattress and they start on their trip. They don't know where they're going, but they got to get out. So, they start walking. Oh, and before they start walking, Surbatsa, he calls Lakshmi again, and he's like Lakshmi do me a favor. I'm coming back to this house. By the way guys Srivatsa is kind of, he has money.

[01:07:20] Like he's not a super rich guy, but he's got some money. He says I want to come back to my house. Please protect my house while I'm gone. And Lakshmi's like, okay, no problem. I'm gonna make sure nobody messes up my house. She's a goddess. She can handle that. So, Chittamani and Srivatsa start walking. And they're walking, walking, walking, and they get to a river.

[01:07:39] Now, the river isn't so deep that they couldn't cross it, but they were like, Ah, we got a little money. Let's ask this ferryman that we just see to help us cross the river. So, the ferryman's like, No problem, I'll help you guys cross the river, but I can only take one person at a time and one item at a time.

[01:07:56] So, it's gonna have to be like, [01:08:00] You, dude, you, lady, and then the mattress or one of those combinations. And Sirbot says, like, are you serious? Can't you just take my wife and the mattress, and then take me after, and he's like one at a time. So, he gets the mattress, he's like, I'll take the mattress first.

[01:08:15] Puts the mattress in his boat, and he starts getting across the river. All of a sudden, out of nowhere, this is a river, this is not the ocean. A big wave comes and backs him up side of the boat. The boat goes flying, the mattress goes flying, the man goes flying, they're never to be seen again. That was all their money, all their riches.

[01:08:35] So Sirbatsa's like, here we go with this evil eye shit, it's starting. So he's already like, oh my god, this is so bad. But Chintamani's like, I know this really sucks, let's just keep walking. You know, this is our lot in life, let's just go. And Sirbatsa's like, okay fine. So they start walking again, and they get to this village.

[01:08:55] And at this village is a bunch of like lumberjacks basically. A bunch of guys who [01:09:00] cut wood. That's how they make money in this village. The village is kind of poor. buT Sira iss like, that's no problem. I can cut wood, wood if I need to support, you know, me and my wife, that's not a problem. So he goes to the villagers, he's like, oh, do you guys mind if I come and cut wood with you?

[01:09:14] And all of them are like, that's fine. So SIRA goes into the woods with all these dudes and starts cutting wood. And when he does, he realizes that all these men are just cutting wood. Whatever kind of wood they find. Sir Botts is smart, right? So he sees sandalwood, and he says, Okay, if I cut this wood and cut it really fine, really nice, I don't have to, number one, I can sell it for more money, and number two, I won't have to work as hard, because I'll be making more money.

[01:09:44] And surely that's what happens. He would cut, like, half the amount of the other dudes, and he would still make more money than them when he went to the market to sell it. So, the other guys got mad at Tsurbatsa because they were like, What? Like, you can't be here making more money than us. And they ran him [01:10:00] out of town, him and his wife.

[01:10:02] So, Tsurbatsa and Chintamani are on the road again. So, they start walking. They get to another village. And this is a village full of weavers. So, these weavers, they spin cotton. Chintamani was like, Oh, I can spin cotton. That's no problem if that's how we're going to support ourselves. Don't worry, I got you, bro.

[01:10:21] So... She starts spinning cotton, and come to find out Chintamani is actually amazing at spinning cotton. Her cotton is the best cotton, nobody's cotton is as beautiful and as fine as hers, and she's making mad money. So all the rest of the ladies start getting kind of pissed off at Chintamani, because they're like, What the hell?

[01:10:44] Like, why is your cotton so much better than all of ours? It's not fair. So Tani started to get the feeling that the other ladies didn't really like her, and she's talking to her husband about it and he's like, you know what? Let's have a party since we're making decent money off your cotton. Let's have a little get [01:11:00] together with the rest of the village.

[01:11:01] And she's like, okay, cool, cool. She's like, I'll cook. Now here's the thing, Tani, she can throw down in the kitchen. She's a cook. Like so all the villagers come, everybody eats tani's food. And they're all like, oh my god, this food is the best food, this is amazing. To the point where, which, this is super rude, all the dudes go back to their wives, and they're like, you guys are terrible cooks, compared to Chintamani, and you all need to take cooking lessons and you're good for nothing.

[01:11:34] Because that's not cool. But that's what happened in the story, everybody, don't yell at me. So that's what these men said to their wives. So now this made the wives dislike Chintamani even more, because they're like, oh, so you're the reason that we're getting insulted, and our husbands are being mean to us.

[01:11:52] Alright. So, now, one day after the party, Chintamani was at the river, and she was bathing, [01:12:00] and then she was bathing next to this boat. This boat had been stuck on the side of the river for like, weeks at this point. But nobody had been able to move it. The men who were running the boat were not able to move it.

[01:12:13] Shinsamani somehow pushed the boat just with her one hand, and it moved. So the men who saw her do it, who were the men on the boat, they were like, Oh my god, what kind of magical strength does that lady have? They're like, you know what we should do? Kidnap her. So they did. So the boat men... Kidnap Chintamani, because they were like, well, you know, your strength is probably going to help us along the road, so we're just going to kidnap you.

[01:12:44] Now, they're pulling Chintamani into the boat, and she's screaming and shouting, and all the other women are there also bathing and washing their clothes. And because they didn't like her, they didn't say a word. They just let it happen for Chintamani. So [01:13:00] she's on the boat, and she doesn't know what to do.

[01:13:02] Now. All this news gets back to Sierra Bota, who was doing something else at the time. Sir. Bota loses his whole entire mind because he's like, what is happening? Who took my wife? So he's lost it. He's running crazy. Literally in this story it says running mad through the village. He's just running around.

[01:13:18] He doesn't know what to do. So then he tells himself, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm going to the river and I'm going to walk up and down the river till I find this freaking boat. Like I'm not doing anything else. I'm just gonna walk up and down the river. So that same day, he goes to the river, he walks along the river till he can't walk anymore, and then he climbs a tree and thinks, Okay, maybe if I climb this tree I can have a better view of the river and I can find the boat.

[01:13:43] So all night he's in the tree waiting for a boat to come by and it doesn't. So he's super disappointed, right? So now it's morning. So he gets down out the tree and he starts walking again. And he sees a cow. Capilla cow. So this is a [01:14:00] cow that can't have babies, but it's constantly making milk.

[01:14:03] And every time it's milked, it will produce. So, you know, Sherbatsa lost his mind the day before. He hasn't eaten. He's, he's wracked with grief because he can't find his wife. But he sees this cow. So, he milks the cow, and he's laying there, and he's enjoying the milk, and he's like, Alright, what am I gonna do?

[01:14:22] I'm depressed, but at least I got some milk. That's good. And then, he looks at the cow's poop, and realizes that the cow's poop is really bright yellow. He's never seen bright yellow cow poop before. So he looks a little bit farther away. And he sees where the cow poop, like the cow had pooped somewhere else, where it was dry.

[01:14:44] And he walks up to it and realizes it's super hard. And he picks it up, and the cow's poop turns into gold. And He's like, What a discovery! So he goes back to the cow poop that was soft, and he writes his name in [01:15:00] the cow poop. And he puts it to the side, to the side of the street. Yeah. He stays in the same place for days, and he's drinking the cow's milk, he's looking for the boat, and he's, every time the cow poops, he's collecting it and writing his name on it.

[01:15:14] Now, okay, back to Chintamani. Meanwhile, she's still on the boat and she's panicked. She doesn't know what to do. So Chintamani, here's the thing, she was a hottie with a body. She was a beautiful lady, okay? And she thinks to herself, Some bad shit's about to happen to me with these Dude, who were bad enough to kidnap me, they're going to do some other terrible shit to me.

[01:15:37] So, she prays to Lakshmi, what they said was a very unusual prayer. She says, Lakshmi, please make me hideously ugly to these men, to the point that they won't even want to touch me. Like, please, because I don't want anything bad to hurt me. I don't want them to hurt me. So, Lakshmi, immediately, she put her plan [01:16:00] into place.

[01:16:00] All of a sudden... The men came down to go, like, see what was going on with Chintamani, and they smelled this terrible smell, and they looked at her, and she had all these wounds that were, like, rotting, and black, and disgusting, and, like, stank. So they were like, Oh, my God, what happened to you? So they left her in the bow of the ship, because they were like, We can't deal with this, but she's strong, so I guess we'll keep her.

[01:16:23] So then, every now and again, they threw down some rice and some water, and that's all she was really living on. So, now, the cargo ship went to a port, they dropped off whatever they had to drop off, and they started going back to the place that they kidnapped Chintamani.

[01:16:39] So, because Sir Batsa had walked so far, he saw the ship. And he saw that it was coming back, and he said, Oh, that must be that ship! He knew it! So he stayed up in the tree for a minute. Now, the men on the ship saw all the gold on the side of the tree. that Sir Batsa had collected. And they were like, Oh, [01:17:00] let's park here because somebody has a bunch of gold that they've left around.

[01:17:03] So the guys get off the ship and Sir Batsa was like, Hey, hey, hey, hey. That's my gold. Don't touch my shit. And they were like, Oh, it's our gold now because there's a whole bunch of us and there's one of you. So they kidnap Sir Batsa. Great. Now everybody's kidnapped. How stressful. So now, they take Sir Batsa, they throw him in the bow of the ship and he sees Chintamani, who he immediately recognizes, even though she looks different.

[01:17:29] But he's like, oh my god, thank god you're alive. Like, he doesn't care about her wounds, whatever, he'll deal with that later. He's just like, oh my god, you're alive. So they don't, but Chintamani kind of looks at him like, don't say a word. Because I don't, she didn't want the kidnappers to know that they knew each other.

[01:17:44] So they're kind of just making eye movements with each other, trying to figure out a plan. And their husband and wife, and I think they're just so close that they, like, can figure that out. So, Zero Pazzo was really good at dice. And the men really liked to play dice.

[01:17:57] So, somehow, he convinced them to let [01:18:00] him go upstairs and play dice with them. So he did, and he won the game. And he won a couple games. And the men started to get more and more annoyed that he kept winning games. And then they decided to throw him off the ship. So they did! They threw him off the ship, into the water, And he was like, oh my god, I'm going to drown in this water.

[01:18:20] But Chintamani somehow maneuvered herself that she was able to throw out her pillow out the, like, a little window to give it to Sarabhatsa so he could use it as a flotation device. So he did. And Sarabhatsa now ended up in, like, some branches on the side of the river. And he just kind of stayed there in the dark because he wanted the boatmen to think he died because he knew they were going to try to find him and kill him.

[01:18:48] Meanwhile, the branches that he got caught up in were not any regular branches. They were actually the branches of this old lady who lived in this beautiful house. But she had a [01:19:00] big garden, but there was nothing in the garden. There was like no leaves, nothing beautiful, it was just barren. And she actually had been like the gardener for the palace of that kingdom, but her, something, like some kind of fungus or blight came over her garden and nothing had grown in a few years, so she lost her job.

[01:19:18] So now Servats is now under, now it's nighttime, right? He's caught in these branches all night. Now it's daytime, and the old woman comes out, she's taking a walk, and she sees this man in the branches, and she's like, oh shit. And so she, and then she also looks upon her garden, there's flowers blooming everywhere.

[01:19:37] The trees are blooming, there's just beautiful stuff everywhere. So she's like, this dude who got stuck in my garden must have brought this beautiful blessing. So she helps him out of the water, he's shivering, he's cold.

[01:19:50] She cleans him up, she gets him something to eat. And she's just like, thank you, thank you, thank you. And he's like, I literally didn't do anything. But you're welcome? She's like, no, you [01:20:00] did something great. So she ran to the palace that day and she was like King, I have flowers again. I can produce flowers for you.

[01:20:08] And the king was like, okay, great. So the king gave her her job back. So she was super happy. So now he stayed, Sir Batsa stayed in the old lady's house for a couple days. And after a couple days, the old lady tells Sir Batsa her whole life story and everything. Sir Batsa's like, do you think you could do me a favor?

[01:20:27] You think you could get me, like, a meeting with, like, the king's, minister to see if he can get me a job? The old lady's like, yeah, I could do that for you. You just saved my whole life. Like, you gave me back my profession. So she goes to the king's minister and talks to him. The king's minister's like, no problem.

[01:20:42] He meets with Sir Batsa. And he's like, Sir Batsa, what kind of job do you want? He's like, I would really love a job where I could collect toll for the people in the river. And the guy's like okay, like that's a really random job that you want, but fine. So he gets a [01:21:00] job where he collects he's a river toll collector.

[01:21:02] So, of course, what happened? One day, he was on the river, collecting people's tolls, and the same boat that he had been kidnapped on came by. This is only a few weeks later. He detained the whole boat. Cause now he's like, part of like, the rural government, so he can do that. He detained the whole boat, he took all their shit out of the boat.

[01:21:23] First he found a bunch of gold. And the men were like, you can't take our gold, that's our gold. And he's like, oh really, this is your gold? Why is my name on it? Everybody remember, he put his name on the cow poo, which was gold. So he said, why is my name on it?

[01:21:36] And they were like, oh! So then, they had to give him the gold. Then, a woman walked out of the bow of the ship. As soon as she walked out of the bow of the ship, all of her wounds went away, and she was back to being as hot as she was before. Chintamani was fine, thank God. And Surabhatta hugged his wife, and he's like, Oh my God, thank God you're fine, I'm so glad I got you back.

[01:21:59] So the king heard [01:22:00] this story, and the king was like, this is the wildest story I've ever heard. So Sirbatsa and Chintamani got to hang out with the king for a couple days, because he couldn't believe this story. And the king went and restored all of Sirbatsa's riches, because he was just so great.

[01:22:16] He gave them horses, he gave them elephants. And he told them to go home, and that they would be cured from the evil eye. By this time now, I guess it had been the three years, and the evil eye was over. So actually, the name Sir Batsa actually literally means child of fortune. And So Sir Batsa became, again, what he was formerly known as, which was a child of fortune.

[01:22:41] And that's the story of the evil eye of Sani. Huh, what a tale.

[01:22:48] Antonio: I didn't know that one. Yeah,

[01:22:51] Ashley: it's fun, right? I was like,

[01:22:52] what? I was like, yeah, I really enjoyed that. I was like, that was fun. That was a good story. Yeah, there's

[01:22:59] Antonio: twists and turns. [01:23:00]

[01:23:00] Ashley: I know! I was, oh, I love a good twist. I was like, this is like, this is like old timey M. Night Shyamalan. Oh gosh. So, thank you everybody. This brings us to the end of our show.

[01:23:12] So Antonio, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. Thank you. It was a pleasure. Yeah, and if you just want to let people know where they can find you on the internet, about your publications or anything about you, feel free.

[01:23:24] Antonio: Sure, so the my book is The Evil Eye, The History, Mystery, and Magic of the Quiet Curse.

[01:23:30] You can find me online at AntonioPagliarulo. com. Or italianwitch. com and you can reach me through my website there.

[01:23:41] Ashley: Awesome! Okay, everybody, all those links are in the show notes as always, so please feel free to go and check out all that good stuff. And Antonio writes all about paganism and witchcraft.

[01:23:53] There's a

[01:23:53] Antonio: tab on my website about my most recent published articles from Different, different media outlets and yeah, [01:24:00] definitely check them out.

[01:24:01] Ashley: Yes, they're very, very good. Very well informed.

[01:24:03] I love it. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, yeah, your writing is fantastic. Thank you. I appreciate

[01:24:07] Antonio: that.

[01:24:08] Ashley: Yes. So, everybody, again, this is Dying with the Divine, and we're on Instagram, Threads, TikTok, Facebook, and... If you like the show, please feel free to give us a reading or a review. Again, it helps a lot. You can listen to us for free anywhere where you can find your podcast.

[01:24:26] And if you have any suggestions for episodes or comments or questions, feel free to email me at dinewiththedivinepod at gmail. com. And if you want to follow me, Ashley, I'm at SankofaHS, that's S A N K O F A H S, and Sankofa Healing Sanctuary on Facebook. Thank you all for being here, and have a wonderful week.

[01:24:46] Bye bye!